I have spent all week in Brighton, at the 2017 Labour Party Conference. This was my first visit to the conference. As someone who dislikes the ideological straitjacket of political affiliation, it will probably be my last.
From the suffocating presence of ‘Palestinian solidarity’ to an obvious tolerance for rabid antisemites, this week was deeply unsettling. There were times where the atmosphere was scary. How do we confront growing antisemitism? More importantly how dangerous is the growing antisemitism inside the Labour party, a confident party, that sees itself as the next government?
At the Conference
The venue, the Brighton centre. I have the conference programme in my hand. About 150 stalls in total, spread out on the several floors of the Centre. Each person at the conference is given a name tag, worn by placing a ‘lanyard’ around the neck. The PSC had brought ‘Palestine Solidarity’ lanyards, and it is clearly the item they want everyone to take from their stall.
I also note they have ‘runners’, people walking off with several PSC lanyards in their hands. One was looking for people running other stalls, who were willing to wear them. This badge of identification was eventually seen on many of the visiting crowd. It is both a brilliant PR strategy and is symbolic of an aggressive movement that works on sectarian identity politics, spreading throughout the Labour undergrowth.
What is ‘Palestine Solidarity’?
And this is exactly where the Labour Party problem with antisemitism begins. For most Jews, this situation is deeply unsettling. There is a fundamental misunderstanding in the Labour Party, that is based on profound ignorance, of exactly what ‘Palestine Solidarity’ actually means.
From the discussions I had, with some of those wearing the PSC lanyard at the conference, they were under the impression that the Palestinians needed support to bring about ‘peace’ in the Middle East.
Yet the PSC, and obviously the active ingredient of ‘Boycott, Divestment & Sanctions’, are not about peace at all. They are about supporting a Palestinian position. You ‘stand in solidarity’, with whatever these ‘representatives’ of the Palestinians want.
And this is why everyone is running into trouble. In the Labour mainstream, ‘Palestine solidarity’ is being confused with a movement of peace. This is a dangerously false appraisal, that has allowed for maximalist Arab political demands, to become the basis for acceptance into the Labour fold.
Thugs, of which more will be said shortly, are acting as enforcers, where anybody who is not toeing this maximalist line, is placed onto a list, that has threats of expulsion attached to it. At the conference, both the Jewish Labour Movement and Labour Friends of Israel, were met with calls for expulsion.
At the Labour Friends of Israel event, there were anti-Israel activists actually taking photos of the MP’s who were present. No doubt to add new faces onto existing expulsion ‘lists’.
If you are inside the Labour Party, but not categorically lining up behind a two state solution, then just which Palestinians are you standing in solidarity with? It certainly isn’t the moderates, nor even the ruling party. Nor are you standing in solidarity with those Palestinians, working on partnerships and building bridges with Israelis.
As soon as you place that PSC lanyard around your neck, from the moment you believe you support ‘Palestine Solidarity’, as it is represented in the UK Labour Party, then you explicitly align with a maximalist Arab position, that is also heralded by Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Assad, Hezbollah and Iran.
Don’t believe me? Walk up to your nearest PSC activist and ask them if the organisation supports a two-state solution. Watch them stutter.
Israeli Labour party member of the Knesset, Stav Shaffir, spoke at the Labour Friends of Israel event about a two-state solution. A talk based on the mutual compromise, that her party believes is necessary to build a lasting peace with Israel’s neighbours. Why is there a call to silence this type of message from the Labour party? If we want to understand what has happened inside Labour, we must ask this question: At what point did support for a peace process, or compromise or negotiations, become an expellable offence?
And it is on these waters that the Labour party is sinking into an antisemitic mess. It hasn’t swallowed support for a progressive peace process, it has digested a regressive maximalist anti-
Israel position. Mainstream members of the party have replaced the idea that the Palestinians need support, with rhetoric that is created in the PR engines of radical Islamic terror groups.
All of these radical groups are anti-democratic, anti-pluralist and of course, brutally antisemitic. It is this ideology, based on propaganda, distortion and hate, that is spreading inside Labour’s veins.
On the basis of falsehoods and propaganda, thugs seek to stifle debate and bring non-adherents into line. This ‘disease’, that portrays the Palestinians as the ‘transcendental victims’, incapable of controlling their own destiny because of the brutal ‘apartheid’ ‘racist’ and ‘genocidal’ regime, is called ‘Palestinianism’.
If you meet anyone who uses terms like ‘Apartheid’, or ‘genocidal’, when discussing Israel, they have become infected with ‘Palestinianism’. They have swallowed an argument based on ignorance, distortion, omission, antisemitism and lies.
These people push for the destruction of the most democratic nation in the Middle East. The only nation where a real Labour supporter would be welcome.
Corbyn and the Labour party
Yet this cult, this religion, is the one being used, almost above all others, to identify a ‘Corbynista’ from the ‘other’. How devoted to Corbyn are you? Why are you not wearing a PSC lanyard? Here comrade, take!
Why is Corbyn closely identified with Palestinianism? Because historically he is a member of the cult, and he is even a patron of the PSC. A patron of a group that stutters when asked about peace, and pushes a maximalist position that can only lead to war.
Look at this image from the conference. Stop the War coalition had a stall carrying a consistent anti-war message. Yet on the far left, they placed the leaflet peddling Miko Peled’s book. Not only is the only inevitable result of Peled’s ideas, a grave and bloody conflict, but Peled’s talks are always full of hate speech. ‘No to Islamophobia’ reads a sign on the back, ‘yes to antisemitism’, reads the leaflet on the table.
In this manner, sectarian identity politics, that are anti-Jewish in nature, are being used to signify adherence to the common cause. In alignment with an anti-Imperialist mindset, inherent inconsistencies in their position, are met with developing conspiratorial tales of Zionist media and financial control. Classic antisemitic tropes with the word Jew crossed out, and replaced with the word Zionist. Every weakness or contradiction in their position, is explained away as a result of some form of Zionist power.
In the end, the only things holding the Palestinian argument together are webs of conspiracies painting Zionist Jews as demons. How else is it possible that the Palestinians still do not have a state of their own? Surely it is nothing they themselves have done? In an environment where Palestinianism is almost the only legitimate currency, a breeding ground for hard-core Jew hatred has been created.
So just as I left the main conference centre because I began to feel intimidated by the number of those wearing lanyards supporting the destruction of Israel, I met the raw antisemitism at the fringe events.
The fringe and raw antisemitism
The first fringe event I went to was one hosted by a group called ‘Free Speech on Israel’. There was standing room only. Maybe 100 people inside. The group is headed up by a few anti-Zionist Jews, whose only public identification as ‘Jew’ is when it is required to attack Israel.
The main speaker was Miko Peled, an activist who uses his father and grandfather’s achievements to forge a career for himself in anti-Israel activism. Probably realising that the more venom he spews, the louder the applause he receives, Peled is one of the most vicious speakers on the circuit.
Peled’s vile speech was given coverage in several mainstream media outlets. He suggested it should be okay to discuss Holocaust denial, called for Israel’s destruction, and used tropes about unlimited funds and media and political influence. He equated Zionists with Nazis and even told people to stop using the word ‘Israel’.
It was at this event that I first heard calls to expel mainstream Jewish movements from the party.
With Miko Peled, Jew haters always get their money’s worth. It is why he is so popular. From Brighton, he is making his way to Scotland, where the Holocaust deniers and conspiracy theorists of the Scottish Palestine Solidarity Campaign can get their ‘fix’.
Fascism and denial
The second event I went to, was a launch event for a new ‘Jewish’ group called Jewish voice for Labour.
Tony Greenstein in his blog about the conference, estimates an audience of over 300. As Greenstein cannot help but heavily distort every figure he ever needs to use, we can guess that the real number is about 200-240. Impressive nonetheless. Having run through a list of those who say they attended, perhaps only 10%-15% were Jewish.
I don’t know for sure, because I didn’t get inside. I became a Jewish Labour member who was denied entry, by Tony Greenstein and Jacqueline Walker, both of whom have been accused of antisemitism themselves. Experiencing the chilling situation of being turned away from a meeting of Jewish Labour members by someone who had claimed, that Jews were chief financiers of the slave trade.
As Jackie denied me entry, she suggested ‘they don’t go to our events’. I have no idea what this means. Somehow she is trying to justify fascist and racist policies of exclusion. I was at the Israel friends of Labour event, so were many anti-Israel activists. ‘Truth’ has nothing to hide Jackie, and this fear anti-Zionists have of me, of opposition, of the camera, of the truth, says everything anyone needs to know about the weakness of the ‘ideology’.
Also turning up at the JVL event was Len McCluskey, head of the Unite union, who apparently stated that his union would affiliate with this JVL group. McCluskey also said the claims of antisemitism were just ‘mood music‘ created to undermine Corbyn. 93% of British Jews see Israel as part of their Jewish identity, so just who are these JVL people providing cover for antisemites?
The Jewish Voice for Labour
Naomi Wimborne-Idrissi is the most visible JVL member. For some extraordinary reason she spoke twice at the conference. After her first speech, Idrissi received a standing ovation from a crowd that seeks legitimacy for its own antisemitism. Idrissi is clearly Jewish. She also married a Muslim, and has a child named after a Sura in the Quran. Idrissi has every right to make whatever life choices she wishes to make. But look at her comment ‘Labour does not have a problem with Jews‘. Does she have a right to say this? Surely, all Idrissi has a right to say is that Labour does not have a problem with her. Given her life choices, this is not quite the same thing.
Perhaps we should ask Idrissi what problem Labour has with me? After all, Idrissi’s own JVL thugs excluded me from their opening event.
Idrissi is a typical example of someone on the fringes of the community attacking the mainstream. Jackie Walker is another. Walker’s Jewish identification comes from her biological father, and she had no Jewish upbringing. Eight years ago Jackie wrote a book, Pilgrim State (well worth a read), following her and her mothers extraordinary life journey, and the word ‘Jew’ appears nowhere inside it. As much as these people have every right to their own opinions, feelings and beliefs, they remain entirely unrepresentative of the mainstream Jewish community.
JVL, a tool of racist bigotry
Which creates a problem. Not because a few people on the fringe of the community wish the majority of the community harm, that is a normal state of affairs true of almost every community in the relationship with its fringe elements. The problem here is that the group JVL, becomes a useful tool for racist bigotry. They become weaponised because antisemites can hide behind them.
They become legitimisers of the virulent widespread antisemitism inherent in the religious rites of Palestinianism. ‘If Jews compare Jews to Nazis, why can’t we’? ‘If Jews say Israel is an Apartheid state, then so can we’. It allows for people like Ben White to tweet about Idrissi, and hide behind her comments. The JVL Facebook group is a list of very few Jews and a few very nasty Jew haters seeking legitimacy.
So twisted is the situation, that when I released my PSC report attacking Holocaust deniers and rabid conspiratorial antisemites. ‘Free Speech for Israel’, this group of Jews behind JVL, ran a front page article not attacking the hard-core antisemites, but instead, attacking me. These Jews gathered round to protect rabid, hard core antisemites.
So when Idrissi says she has no patience for real antisemitism, she is lying. There is ample evidence that for the cause of ‘Palestinianism’, she will belittle or ignore Rothschild conspiracy & even Holocaust denial. As the report clearly shows, when she stands on the street waving her flag, half the people standing nearby are hard core antisemites. A situation she has no problem with.
The Jewish ‘Jehovah’s Witnesses’
This has to be clearly recognised for the serious problem that it is. For discussion sake, let us take the Jehovah’s Witnesses. A perfectly legitimate fringe group on the edge of Christian thought, that is entitled to its own belief system. But can they be used to represent or replace mainstream Christianity?
What if we imagine a scenario where Christians are facing persecution. It becomes possible to weaponise one fringe sect to attack the mainstream. In this way enemies of Christianity could use the Jehovah’s Witnesses, (who become the ‘real Christians’ just the way anti-Zionist Jews have become the ‘real Jews’). A move that would clearly be seen as blatant religious persecution throughout the West. The Church would never accept such a situation.
This is no different. This is the lens through which attempts to rid Labour of mainstream Jewish thought must be seen. As Jews we cannot accept this. It is a blatant antisemitic attack for people like Len McCluskey to propel JVL ideology into the mainstream as a way of furthering Palestinianism. It is a form of religious persecution.
Jew hate receives a standing ovation
The standing ovation Idrissi received was indicative of how riddled with ‘Palestinianism’, Labour has become. It is a hostile place for proud Jews. Speech after speech referencing anti-Israel ideology, was received with love. Too many people in the crowd have a problem with Jews, and there are too many speakers playing to that crowd. For a Jew, it was unsettling. At the height of the debate, on Tuesday morning, the atmosphere was darker than anything I have ever witnessed.
To my knowledge, I had my photo take twice at the conference. Once as I was leaving the ‘Free Speech’ event, an activist Elleane Green spotted me and reached for her camera, whilst the second time was at the Labour Friends of Israel event, where Tapash Abu Shaim, was camera ready.
These are some of their social media posts:
This from the Tapash link on the left:
‘It does a disservice to the Palestinians and non-Palestinian victims of Israeli foreign policy to try to divorce the Palestine Question from the broader manifestations of the locus of power which James Petras has referred to as the “Zionist Power Configuration” (ZPC). This ZPC operates at both a global and local level as was indicated on 9/11.’
Imagine a world where someone was found to have posted hard core racist material, and yet was still allowed back into the Labour Party Conference. Well, this is that world. As a Jew, as a target of their racism, it is they who are welcomed. It is they who feel entitled, and feel at home. They look me straight in the face, and raise their cameras to capture their target again. How do you think that feels, as a victim of a racism that the Labour party proudly hosts?
As the newspapers began to reflect the deep concern British Jews have about antisemitism in the Labour Party, a circus of individuals protested. The Guardian ran a piece which correctly pointed out that saying ‘nothing to see here’ wouldn’t be accepted talk of outsiders discussing the concerns of any other minority group. Not to mention that two of those people discussed, Ken Loach and Ken Livingstone, have both been accused of rabid antisemitism themselves.
This feeling of Jews not being victims, of Jews making up the racism against themselves, is based deep in an antisemitic mindset that sees the Jews as a privileged group. In essence the denial of antisemitism is rooted in antisemitism.
But there was nothing funny about Jew after Jew talking of the oppressive atmosphere at the conference. I was approached by more than a dozen. Each with a similar feeling of sickness, each with a similar analogy about other dark times in Jewish history. The BDS thugs that lined up outside the hotel to protest the arrival of the Israeli ambassador wouldn’t have helped improve anyone’s perception. A dozen Jews came up to me and spoke of their fear. That’s almost as many Jews as were at the launch event for the JVL.
Suffocation inside the Labour Party
At the conference, only Palestinianism gets airtime. I spoke to people working to assist a free Syria, I spoke to people working to free Iran. Both groups told me they have similar problems. There is little interest. You cannot be strongly anti Assad and anti-Iran, without being anti-Hezbollah. And these movements oppose some of the only friends Hamas has. Palestinianism is the antithesis of a free and liberal Middle East. As Palestinianism spreads through a strategy of intersectionality, groups fighting for other peoples freedom become alienated. You are either with the Palestinian cause or not welcome in the Labour party. The end result is a Labour party immobile in the face of the worst human rights abuses of our time.
Hundreds of thousands of people have been killed, Iran’s regime strangles Iranian freedoms, and the Labour party is paralysed because of its addiction to a pro-Assad, pro-terrorist, pro-Iranian support network. Look at the list of fringe events. Some of the largest movements of refugees the world has ever seen, use of chemical weapons, violent bloody suppression of human rights, and Palestinianism has suffocated everything else out of existence. Apart from one meeting on Turkey (+ 1 on Cuba), the only fringe events talking about international foreign issues were all about ‘Palestine’.
These people are now in control of Labour, they are taking Labour’s core principles and destroying them, branch by branch.
Palestinianism is a disease that is anathema to freedom, to debate, to openness and to human rights. It will infect those who catch the disease with antisemitism just as it provides them with the denial mechanism to protest their innocence.
Unfortunately, there isn’t enough knowledge or self-awareness within the party to be able to counter this threat. Most people who try to address the issue, do not have enough historical knowledge to deal with well targeted and irrelevant deflections about Israeli government policy. There isn’t enough of an understanding of Jewishness, to be able to put blind and stupid ideologues like Idrissi in their place.
In turn, this means bystanders to an exchange are more likely to have sympathy for a false argument over ‘free speech’, unaware they are allowing racism to propagate freely. As Jews protest, this reinforces an imaginary enemy of overstated Zionist power. Antisemitism is breeding. Hard-core ideologically driven antisemites outwit and outmatch much of the well intended opposition that comes their way. Too much expertise is needed to counter one single mindless antisemite. Just when the Jews need the Labour Party to stand up and speak out against Jew hatred, Labour becomes crippled by an anti-Jewish disease.
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94 thoughts on “Facing raw antisemitism at the Labour Party Conference 2017”
Great report, thank you
The pit-of-the-stomach feeling is from the glee and rapture, a bit of Jew-on-Jew action, seems to invoke. The applause, the cult, the adoring faces.
Jew bear-baiting; Jew-porn…they bloody love the cover it affords.
You are such a drama queen David. All this shrieking hyperbole is starting to make you look ridiculous, I am sorry to have to say.
I am highlighting dangerous and rabid fascism & antisemitism in a party that sees itself as the next government. It is unsurprising you oppose me.
David you have obviously not read the JPR report which the CST endorses and which clearly shows that statement to be untrue.
I was kicked out of the LP for calling a guy a narcissist. It turned out the guy was Jewish which made the comment antisemitic.
Anyway you have challenged me on several occasions to address the content rather than just spout ad homs.. TBH I just couldn’t be bothered. I am maybe starting to think that maybe I might.
Let’s start with the assertion that if you ask a Palestinianist if they believe in the 2 state delusion they can only stutter, and this proves they are antisemitic. Well I wouldn’t just stutter and don’t I don’t know any other Palestinianist that would, and I know a lot. You just made that up. So you could ask me if you want a demo.
And of course the Board of Deputies reject a two state delusion as well. If if you don;t believe me you can do one of two things. You could ask Jonathan or you could see here.
I guess the Board are a bunch of raving antisemites
“Let’s start with the assertion that if you ask a Palestinianist if they believe in the 2 state delusion they can only stutter, and this proves they are antisemitic. ”
That isn’t what I said. If you do want to debate, please be careful about the way you present my views. The only statement I made about the ‘stutter’, was to suggest the PSC do not respond well to that direct question because they explicitly refuse to take a position. Not sure how you misread that one. Seemed pretty straightforward to me.
What does watch them stutter mean?
And are you talking about PSCer’s in particular or Palestinianists in general ?
I mean there is an important distinction. You give the impression of floating seamlessly between ” Palestiinianists” and the PSC.
And I do agree that people’s views should be represented accurately. Are you careful to do that ?
Always careful to present their views properly Stephen. My comment about the stutter was this.
If you think the PSC is about two states and peace, then ask them directly. You will not hear a straight answer.
Clearly this is a comment about the PSC and not the activists. Most PSC activists I have met are absolutely one staters, which is political trouble for the PSC. So the PSC choose to pretend they hold ‘no preference’. I never linked this comment with antisemitism.
Ha ok you are distinguishing between PSC Central and the typical activist. So to sum up PSC Central are reluctant to commit explicitly because it is likely to cause political problems. I agree with that. This is why they are so ineffectual and to be frank’ useless.
And the activists you meet are one staters and are not shy about saying so. Am I representing you accurately ?
Does this make them antisemitic,, that is a point that needs clearing up. I seem to be getting that your view is that it doesn’t ?
Of course I am distinguishing between the two. And yes, the ‘activists’, who I meet are rarely shy about one-state (when asked what they personally support), which separates them from many of the ‘two-state’ armchair ‘solidarity’ members, who wrongly believe that peace, rather than ideological extremism is at the top of the agenda. It is the dangers inherent in this ignorance that I refer to in my post.
You’ve been hanging around these parts for two years. You should know that I am quite clear that I reject an anti-Zionism = antisemitism equation, even though I know that many people do propose it holds. I personally think that in theory, because anti-Zionism is not a constant (anti-Zionism in 1928, 1947, 1966 & 2017 hold different arguments against a changing entity) the issue of context needs to be addressed. I also believe that because Zionists chose British Palestine, it is difficult to suggest that Palestinian opposition to Israel (as in the opposition of some of those that live there) is *always* inherently antisemitic. HOWEVER. Given three things
The situation today, the realities of Israel, and the success that Zionism has clearly had
The reality of a brutal conflict that would be an absolute necessity in forcing the destruction of Israel
The amount of antisemitism within the anti-Zionist camp
I think the burden of proof lies with anti-Zionists to show their ideological opposition to Israel is not antisemitic. For example, do they oppose all borders and nationalisms and how do they treat nations that were built on conquest (= those with far less international legitimacy than Israel). If not with an even brush, they’d have to work very hard to convince me.
Well look I have a problem here in that I don’t regard myself as an anti zionist. My position is that Zionism had its chance that blew it. So I am no more inside the anti Zionist mindset than you are. And I am finding that an increasing number of Palestinianists are more or less adopting that position.
And I find your assertion that the burden of proof is on the accused astonishing. In what school of jurisprudence or quasi jurisprudence was that doctrine conceived and born.
But anyway I think we have got this bit more or less sorted. I look forward to the next exciting instalment which will be the compiling of lists by Palestinianists to have Israelists expelled from the LP. .
Thank you for the expressions Palestinianists/ Isrealists. I have struggled for the right words. Perfect.
Anyway I look forward to the next instalment which I defer til next week. Tomorrow I will be asking the question ” If Corbyn is your friend do you really need enemies? “
Are you absolutely sure that you were kicked out of the Labour Party only for that?
Yep absolutely sure. I was offered an appeal but couldn’t be bothered.
Only a couple of weeks ago a bloke was kicked out for calling Hartley-Brewer a Zionist.
Octopus: the power of the lobby.
This is a great report ,and I believe the Labour Party is sinking into a rabid hole thanks to Corbyn, I no longer support them ,praise be to God .
Stephen Bellamy could not have put it better. I agree with his few words. Please, enough of this rubbish. Some more honest report would not go amiss, luckily there are many sources that provide that. I wonder who are those really pormoting sectarianism? Palestinianism is a disease? What a loads of nonsense! And you seek funding too?
I find your report really dividing, not informative and useless. However, it is your blog and you are entitled to write what you like. I shall not read other posts of yours.
This is my reply. Have a good day.
Yes Palestinianism is clearly a ‘disease’. I note you neither attack any specific points nor understand the issue of Palestinianism. Perhaps rather than rush to criticise, you could spend a little more time trying to understand the argument. And yes, I spend a lot of time researching Jew hatred, and it can be expensive at times. Do you have a problem with people donating to help fight racism?
Any way I am sure you will agree that his was the best speech of the conference by far.
But anyway again do you not think there just has to be something intrinsically wrong about a country that feels they have to have ” Friends of….” section in every organisation in the world from the very top all the way down to my local girl guides troup ?
It’s really simple
When the current Israeli government stops the blockade of Gaza ( which the UN estimates will be uninhabitable in under three years ) when the apartheid is ended ,when Arabs enjoy equal civil rights with Jews . When the millions of refugees are allowed to return home . When the illegal settlers stop demolishing Palestinian homes and go home
When Palestine is free in other words then your ” disease of Palestinianism ” will be cured ,
Why do you object to these demands if you are not part of the Zionist view that all Oakestine should become a Jewish state with no place for the indigenous population ?
Finally it is you people who get other Jewish people thrown out of the Labour Party and spread false stories about Holocaust denial meetings which never happened .
If you were there you know that nobody attempted to discuss or deny the Holocaust
It’s people like you who collude with the Israeli Enbassy to undermine and destroy critics of the occupation .
You want Naomi expelled ..you want McCluskey expelled … who else is on your list ?
People are really fed up at legitimate criticism of Netanyahu’s government being called rabid anti semitism . It’s such a useful tool for you to stifle free speech but it’s totally lost its validity .
Thank you so much for proving , oh, so many points for me. You can be more effective in highlighting Labour’s antisemitism in 225 words that I could in over 3000.
I will obviously ignore the idea of ‘you people’, and of my ‘colluding with the Israeli embassy’, because they are well, so ‘obvious’.
I can suggest you have no idea what Apartheid is, would ask you which ‘home’ you want these ‘illegal settlers’ to go home to, and ask you what map of Palestine you draw when you call for it to be free?
Arabs inside Israel do enjoy full civil and political rights. In fact, whether you like it or not, they are the Arabs in the Middle East with the most rights. Odd that of all the nations in the ME, you want to take apart the only one that allows all its citizens (Arabs included) this type of freedom. What is it with you? This is fact, not your fiction.
Your definition of Zionism is clearly flawed, as I am a Zionist but reject entirely your statement, there is no place for Palestinians (your use of the word indigenous to only describe the Arab population is also misplaced)
I never suggested there was an attempt to deny the Holocaust at the event, you are just smearing. There were a few attendees who do though, and I would be happy to link you to them.
In short you are a classic case of a corbynista who has caught ‘Palestinianism’. I can guarantee, if you sat a test on the history of the conflict, you’d fail. How bad is that. You seek the destruction of a liberal democracy on the basis of ignorance and the lies you have been fed. Shameful really.
Oh and please stop conflating support for Netanyahu with support for Israel. Its lame.
When I was a kid growing up in Bury you’d get ignorant pricks telling you that the Jews should go home to Israel. Now a whole new group of pricks want the Jews to go home FROM Israel. They’ve really got to sort this out. I’m an Israeli now Roge and believe me, I am home. It is a source of tremendous pride and satisfaction that I live in the Jewish State where we Jews determine our own fate and will never again have to rely on the non-Jews for our safety, security and survival. You’ll never get this and I don’t really care one way or the other but suffice to say that this is what victory looks like old son.
You just made that up Ian.
Media Response bloke; “You just made that up Ian”
Me; “What? The bit where I said Roge was a prick?”
When I was a kid growing up in Bury you’d get ignorant pricks telling you that the Jews should go home to Israel.
Media Response bloke: ” When I was a kid growing up in Bury you’d get ignorant pricks telling you that the Jews should go home to Israel.”
Me:” You too! Explains a lot”
yes, and many of those same ‘ignorant pricks’ are now saying Israel should be destroyed. Or the Jews should ‘go home’ from Israel because it is not their home. Do you see a pattern developing here?
David Ian just made it up. It a rip off of Oz who said that in 30’s Europe the Jews were being told to bugger off to Israel and now they are being told to bugger off out of Israel. Ian simply transplanted it to Bury, Greater Mancs.
Those same ignorant pricks can’t now be saying Israel should be destroyed because those ignorant pricks don’t and never did exist. Ian just made them up.
And everything you just said is anti Semitic. Don’t you understand that Israel is in so called Palestinenand the slogan free Palestine means slaughter all Jews. In other words annihilate jews, destroy Israel….the indigenous population and hand the whole area to an Arabic Muslim terrorist group who want to infiltrate the West and make us slaves of Islam! How blind you are. Israel is not apartheid. Muslims Jews and Christians Arabs live and worship together there. Netenyahu may not be the best statesman in the world but he loves his people and his land. Shame that can’t be said of more politicians…..did you know the word Palestinian for the local Arabs was first coined by Yasser Arafat and before that the Palestinians were Jews?
Cast you mind back to the date of which Israel withdrew from Gaza and handed it back to Palestinians. Can you remember what happened next? Google it and refresh your memory, and then ask yourself why on earth should Israel not secure its borders to the utmost against those who not only say they want to kill Jews in Israel but behave it too?
I am a keen student of human nature, but I confess to utter bewilderment that people like you should advance such an argument, as if everyone should agree with you, and ignore their own lived experience under the rocket fire “thank you” from Gaza as a result of this act of faith.
YOU should DEFINATELY be on the list
“Apart from one meeting on Turkey, the only fringe events talking about international foreign issues were all about ‘Palestine’.”
Apart from the Cuba Solidarity meeting, the Venezuela meeting, the Justice for Columbia meeting, the Jamaica Night, the Irish Society reception, the Ocalan campaign meeting on Kurdistan, and all those meetings on the UK’s relationship with the EU.
Toby. Thank you, I missed one (+edited the post). The Cuban one, which was the same as the Venezuelan meeting. 1 meeting, not sure why you have them listed separately – fringe has them down as a single event. Cannot find any listing via the app about Columbia. The Ocalan meeting, is the Turkish one I reference. So you are right. Two meetings, discussing these international rights issues rather than one. But I am guessing you didn’t come to do much more than deflect, and perhaps suggest that because the Labour party had a ‘Jamaica party’, then my entire post is wrong.
I am wondering whether you actually spoke to these human rights activists like I did. How do you explain, the Labour party’s horrific indifference to global injustice, such as for example, Syrian suffering?
Yep, he really did say ‘you people.’
Once again, I take my hat off for your perseverence and clarity, David. I had my own little experience with this on Tuesday. The Independent (online) published a concerned and fairly accurate article about the anti-Semitism problem at the conference. I added a comment explaining that Labour’s anti-Semitism can be defined with direct reference to the IHRA Definition issued last year and recognized by some 32 countries, including the UK and the European Parliament. It applies because, like the US State Dept. definition and the earlier EUMC version, it has a list of attitudes and actions against Israel that are in their intention and purpose decidedly anti-Semitic. One reply forced me to list Israel’s achievements in human rights, including right-on topics like women’s rights,m gay rights, and minority rights. The torrent of abuse I received on both of my comments was one of the worst, if not the worst, I have experienced. Vicious scarcely begins to describe it. But you know the score on that better than I. I believe we should take UK recognition of the IHRA Definition as grounds for complaints about hate speech and racism before the police and bodies that are supposed to deal with such matters. What is the point in having an internationally recognized document that defines anti-Israel extremism as anti-Semitic if we can’t actually bring the full force of the law to expose Labour and even see arrests of many party members on grounds that apply to simple racism or ‘Islamophobia’? Can’t the BoD, UK Lawyers for Israel, or somebody else take this in hand. All those people who cry ‘I love the Jews, but I hate and willingly demonize Israel, so I can’t possibly be considered an anti-Semite’ are in breach of the IHRA and other definitions. Love for Israel is part of most Jewish identity. Attacks on it are attacks on Jewish identity, and that is anti-Semitic.
Denis you need to go lie down a while. The IHRA bullshit will never be relied upon in a legal context
You see Denis while Israelists have made corrupting inroads into several much loved British institutions, so far the judicially have, for the most part stood firm in defence of long established British liberties. A legal action based on a breach of the IHRA crapola would be laughed out of court.
Lessons have been learned from the FUCU disaster.
judiciary that is
Are you seriously suggesting that if I criticise the Israeli governments continued building of settlements in direct defiance of UN resolution 2334 that I am anti-semitic ?
oh my, there is a straw man and a half. If you want to play in these parts Helen, you’ll have to do a tad better than that.
Were I you, Denis, I’d rely more on Campaign Against Antisemitism than any other. They’ve had some successes so far, but it’s a slow business.
Babs I would suggest you go lie down a while with Denis but that could be misconstrued
No it wouldn’t, Stephen. Rather it should be expected from such a one as you and given the verbal diarrhoea with which you seem to be afflicted and its consequent effect on what passes for your thinking. You really are a one-trick pony and oppositional to boot.
Denis invariably speaks sense. You rarely do (and if you do I suspect that it’s by accident). Simples!
Babs you are just trying to make me blush I can tell
A nice piece of work David and thank you on behalf of so many who I’m sure are grateful to you for spreading truth not lies and exposing these foul little Nazis with their spoon fed “facts” about Israel which they NEVER actually go away and check. Nothing has changed, its just more lying by omission, half truths and hate. One day we will have to fight them (Red & green Alliance) and then we will smash them back and that I can promise. history shows us that Nazis never taste victory.
“People are really fed up at legitimate criticism of Netanyahu’s government being called rabid anti semitism . It’s such a useful tool for you to stifle free speech but it’s totally lost its validity .”
And that’s about the size of it.
Rightly or wrongly, the article and many commentators on here just look like stooges for the current Israeli regime. It brings the entire debate into disrepute – and the *rage* directed against anyone who challenges that narrative is *truly* disturbing.
Thank you. It is a while since I have seen the Livingstone Formulation (Hirsh) played so well. If you can just raise your indignation up just a notch, we will feel the full force of someone who is attacking the person making the claim of antisemitism, far more than he seems to care about the existence of antisemitism itself.
Now if you just provide us with the examples of legitimate criticism being called rabid antisemitism, we will all appreciate your post all the more. I tell you what I will start by providing one.
‘The Jews were chief financiers of the slave trade’. Legitimate criticism of Netanyahu’s government or not?
no response? Try another. ‘Hitler was a Zionist’. Legitimate criticism of Netanyahu’s government or not?
Erm David there is no mention of Israel at all in that statement.
But since we are on the subject can you tell us what is the force of ” legitiimate ” in “legitimate criticism of Israel.”
Then I will be asking you why, in what used to be the land of free expresssion, we can’t do illigitimate criticiism of Israel. Is there any other country the criticism of which its supporters demand be legitimate, and then circumscribe legitimate to proscribe unwelcome criticism and keep discourse concerning that country within bounds deemed to be safe. When I expresss my firmly held view that Israel is a crappy racist kleptomaniacal basket case is that illigitimate. ? Are you demanding some kind of exceptionalism for Israelists and Israel ?
Of course there is no mention of Israel in those examples, which is why it is odd, so many people are still defending those comments.
I don’t feel the need to respond to the second part of your post, it is like complaining that a home for battered women is sexist, and suggesting we should let the mob of angry men into the home on the basis of equality. Anyone who opposes this is a sexist and you should be allowed to scream at the top of your voice for such a result because it is in the interests of free speech that you be allowed to do so. It is a sick position to hold and isn’t an issue worth debating.
Sorry your battered woman analogy is lost on me. I merely wished to explore the idea of legitimate and illegitimate criticism of Israel which I don’t understand. No matter.
Why? Because you happen to disagree with what they write?
Are you engaging in debate then?
What I can never come to terms with, is the continuous need for my tribe(Jews) to defend themselves ad infinitum against ignorant anti Semites. Get over it, nothing will change and no matter how we indulge ourselves and expound the virtues of our faith and what the Jews have given to humanity, the Nobel prize winners, the music, medicine, science etc.etc., that ain’t gonna be a “Get out Jail free “card. So if any Jews feel the need to deride Israeli policies, keep your well intended mouths shut, as all it does is add sustenance to the troughs of those Jew haters and thank your lucky stars that Israel will never, ever, let it happen again when we place the lives of our people in the hands of those who wish to do us harm. If you ever feel the need to criticise Israel, keep your cards close to your chest .Go to the cemeteries anywhere in Europe, South America and here in York and see the graves of men, women and children whose lives were taken so violently, because of their faith. So, the two thousand years of expulsion into the Pale, the Ghettos, the Pogroms and finally the Slaughter Houses. This Jew will not go quietly into the night.
So you would deny Jews the civil liberties that the rest of us enjoy. That is pretty discriminatory, and, dare I say it, borderline antisemitic.
You really are a piece of work! What civil liberties in law, when for example, incidences of antisemitism incur laughable fines and in one case perpetrators were deemed by the dopey magistrate to have been “of good character” hitherto and therefore were to be given a fine of only £40?
Which civil liberties apply when the bar for prosecution of hate crimes against Jews is set far higher than for hate crimes against others? Gimme a break!
Hey Babs. Bellamy’s role is media response and he is paid to tail authors like David and harass them as part of the wider agenda of his paymasters. By his own frequent admission he is not here to engage in debate and his only investment is in deflective tactics designed to demean and demoralise. I wouldn’t worry too much about his remarks and frankly if I was David I’d be a little aggrieved that this bloke was the best that his opponents could come up with.
I know that! He also haunts UKMedia Watch in the same way and with the same negative results. No, I just don’t want to let him go unanswered.
Well done David
David, is it your view that opposing the basis on which Israel is constituted as a Jewish state, or supporting the case for the establishment of a secular binational state, which guarantees equal rights for all citizens, constitutes a warrant for genocide?
It is my view that you would need to consider the outcome of your suggestions. There is a difference between drawing pictures of Narnia in the sand, and what has happened to the people of Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Libya and so on. The truth is that Israel has managed to build for itself, a free and democratic state that protects all of its citizens, inside a very dark neighborhood. Even as the forces that align against it continue to brazenly call for Jews to be slaughtered, people suggest Israel should lower its guard. The wish would be for Israel’s freedom to by replicated and driven outwards, so others in the neighborhood could experience it. Not placed at risk. Duplicate Israel’s freedom elsewhere in the neighbohood then re-ask the question in a generation or two.
You would have to be driven by some seriously twisted ideological inconsistencies, to suggest that the Jewish people, the people Europe committed genocide against, should somehow be the ones to put themselves at risk, just as the world begins to look a more dangerous place than it has for several decades. You wouldn’t leave your front door open to Hamas, why should they?
As for supporting or opposing. I neither support nor oppose the choices made by Australians who live under their democratically elected government. It would however be a rather odd position for me to take to suggest I oppose their right to make those decisions. They are a democratic nation and it isn’t really for me to interfere in their democracy. Worse still as I live in a very flawed democracy myself – loads to focus on here. If you are asking me whether it would be right to oppose the rights of Israelis to live in their own state and make their own choices, by trying to force the break-up of their democracy, I’d say – Obviously not.
Media Response Nonce; ” David Ian just made it up. It a rip off of Oz who said that in 30’s Europe the Jews were being told to bugger off to Israel and now they are being told to bugger off out of Israel. Ian simply transplanted it to Bury, Greater Mancs.
Those same ignorant pricks can’t now be saying Israel should be destroyed because those ignorant pricks don’t and never did exist. Ian just made them up.”
Me; ” The words of Alfred D Wintle come to mind who spoke about ‘the cad who knew your own home town better than you did and he ain’t never been there.’ The paymasters have now got the old booby trying to prove a negative for money, poor sap”.
I’ve never read such a load of ‘look at me I’m a victim’ self pitying drivel.
As many Zionists do, you mention antisemitism and even try to emphasise it with ‘RABID antisemitism’ yet you fail to give one single example. The only example of antisemitism in the Labour Party is from Zionists in the JLM accusing Jews who reject Zionism of not being Jews, this is why there was a call for the JLM and LFI to be expelled from the Party, not because they are Jews but because they are antisemites.
At last, through Jewish Voice for Labour and Free Speech on Israel, non-Zionist Jews are getting a chance to be heard in the Labour Party and the Zionist, right wing JLM are on the run. This is obviously a situation which you cannot accept because it threatens to highlight the abhorrent nature of Israel’s ethnic cleansing. The JLM are being backed into a corner and are now viciously turning on fellow Jews who have had enough of them.
You typify Jewish psychiatrist Avigail Abarbanel’s description of Zionists as having a mental illness, with the deluded belief they have rights which do not exist.
Giving no examples but calling people ‘thugs’ for having had enough of Zionism’s nastiness demeans any scintilla of an argument you may think you have.
“On the basis of falsehoods and propaganda, thugs seek to stifle debate”
What are these ‘falsehoods and propaganda’ of which you speak? And as for thugs stifling debate, that surely must apply to the Zionist thugs who want to prevent criticism of Israel and Zionism on the false premise that it is antisemitic!
You show not an ounce of self awareness and completely dismiss any thought that Zionists and their illegal colonisation of Palestine are anything but blameless. It doesn’t appear to enter your head for one second that what Israel is doing in Palestine is a crime and an outrage and Palestinians and others have every right, indeed a duty, to speak out against it. Criticism of Zionism offends your sensitivities but the wholesale slaughter of Palestinians doesn’t warrant a second thought. Yes poor downtrodden Zionist, we definitely know where you are coming from!
“Illegal colonization” and “wholesale slaughter” Jack? Don’t forget to mention our wholly unprovoked bombing of kindergartens, children’s hospital, Arab weddings and old peoples homes. For good measure throw in our genocidal tendency, our apartheid regime, our ethnic cleansing and our general Bond villainy if, as it seems, your aim is to appear like the most cretinous prick in the village. If you’re going balls-out then at least commit fully to the role.
Well thanks Jack, it never ceases to amaze me how much I can rely on people like you to do most of the dirty lifting for me.
Whether you wish to accept it or not, approximately 90-93% of people who identify as Jewish maintain Israel forms part of their Jewish identity. These Jews ALL tick the Zionist box. Which leaves 5-10% who don’t. Of this minority, we can guess that half are not secular, but rather extreme ultra-orthodox. A weird cult group who we can put aside because theirs is a religious argument, not a political or humanitarian one. Those being discussed in JVL,and the Labour party are not these group, but rather oddities on the fringe, like Wimborne-Idrissi, or Walker who had no Jewish upbringing whatsoever, and so on. Isn’t it odd, that the less you conform to Jewish identity (keep Jewish traditions) the more likely you are to join this group?
So let me get this straight. You are arguing, that expelling groups representing the vast vast majority of Jews, over 90%, so as to pretend this tiny fringe of 3-5% are the ‘real Jews’ is not an act of antisemitism? Is not religious persecution?
I am leaving aside your empty claims of Israel’s or Zionism’s ‘nastiness’. All one has to do is to see how other nations act when attacked, to know Israel does cartwheels to reduce the casualty count. It is INSANITY to fact check the conflict and still adhere to the idea that ‘wholesale slaughter’ is occurring. Yours is an attitude that wouldn’t stand up to an argument, which is why the anti-Zionist narrative is protected and refuses for the most part to engage. The academic boycott is an act of cowardice, because you begin the battle by trying to silence the other side’s argument. I am banned from anti-Zionist events because they are scared of what I write. Anti-Zionism in the UK is fascist, totalitarian. Jew hating.
Nobody, and I MEAN NOBODY, is arguing that proportionate or legitimate criticism of Israel is antisemitism. It is a straw man, developed to allow people like you to talk of a non existent ‘wholesale slaughter’, numerous other falsehoods, demonise Israel and then pretend people who protest such lies are the bad guys.
Israel is by a country mile, the most liberal, humanitarian, free, democratic and progressive nation in the region. It is a nation that seeks peace, and has barbaric enemies that truly seek to destroy it and would slaughter the Jews living inside. Your lies, and propaganda that paints Israel differently, cannot dent reality. Distorting truth will only infect the minds of SOME of the people.
The amazing thing is you believe all these lies. An issue with Zionist power lays at the heart of such belief. You even cannot see the antisemitism clearly contained within the blog, then come here with some of your own, suggesting it is right to silence over 90% of UK Jews. Horrific, racist, antisemitic stuff, dressed up as humanitarian concern for Palestinians, a people you have placed as hostage until such time as your own Jewish demons have been dealt with.
Shameful. But thanks for popping in.
“ken Loach and Ken Livingstone, have both been accused of rabid antisemitism themselves.”
This is a little move straight out of the Israelist playbook.
Here we have a true statement, from the truth of which the ill informed, otherwise disinterested reader, is meant to take away a different notion, which is ” that Ken and Ken are rabid antisemitism. We are not told accused by whom.
We can all play that game.
Jonathan Hoffman, Harvey Garfield, Sharon Klaff and Richard Millet have all been accused of rabid Muslim hate and far right collaboration themselves”.
David at least have the balls to amend your statement to ” Both of whom are rabid antisemites” or take the thing out altogether.
David, thank you for taking the time to respond but I notice you still haven’t given me a single example of antisemitism at the Labour Conference.
“Nobody, and I MEAN NOBODY, is arguing that proportionate or legitimate criticism of Israel is antisemitism.”
Yes they are, people such as Roz Rothstein still use the discredited EMCR definition:
“by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.”
I can legitimately argue that Israel is a racist State and there are no end of examples to back that up but according to Rothstein and others it would be antisemitic.
“90-93% ………….These Jews ALL tick the Zionist box”.
You are incorrect again, this survey shows that among British Jews, those who do not call themselves ‘Zionists’ is 59%. Even in the USA it is at least 20% and don’t forget that only about one third of all Jews live in Israel!
I could discredit your arguments even further so I’m sure you will thank me for not increasing your discomfort more so. And by the way, your discomfort is nothing compared to the discomfort of the Palestinians who have had burning white phosphorous dropped on their heads by the cowards in the IDF!
There is no discomfort and you haven’t discredited my arguments at all. I keep waiting for some sign from anti-Zionists that there is a cohesive, logical position, supported by a sturdy adherence to factual discussion, and I am let down every time. Between you and me, when I started arguing on internet forums there were one or two posters I actually had trouble countering. But this was two decades ago. I simply believe at that point, I hadn’t quite seen through all the tricks, and there were many things I had yet to learn. It has been a long, long time, since I have seen anything resembling a proper argument. Recently, posts like yours are the best on offer. Empty of substance, filled with false bravado, and either out of ignorance or foolishness, distorting the only statistics or dates they use.
I will begin with the antisemitism. In that blog, I explain that I was photographed twice at the conference. Both of those people, who targeted me specifically, have shared various posts about Jewish conspiracy, Zionist webs of power and Rothschild conspiracy. 9/11 – Israeli job, Paris – Israeli job. None of this has anything to do with Israeli policy. Then I was personally denied entry to an event by someone who was suspended from the party for suggesting ‘Jews were chief financiers of the slave trade’ – that too has nothing to do with Israeli policy. Are these not examples of antisemitism?
Your ‘racist’, comment is also wide of the mark. Balfour did not suggest two states, rather he pushed for one. What followed was a period of Arab violence attacking Jewish refugees. Imagine today, if people started murdering the refugees because they didn’t like immigrants. Those are the politics you support, opposition to, violence against and murder of – refugees. What eventually surfaced was the idea of partition, put forward first by the British, and then by the UN. This too,was not a Jewish decision but rather an international realisation that the Arabs were unwilling to live with Jews. The Jews accepted this international plan. In essence, if we are to view ‘racism’ as you suggest it, then Israel is no more racist, than a home for battered women is ‘sexist’. The idea of separation, to protect the victim. Even then it fails, because FACTUALLY (not in the fake news world of anti-Zionism), there is only ONE NATION, in the entire region where you would be protected as a minority, have your rights protected, your faith protected, your vote protected, your freedom to choose protected, regardless of your race, colour or religion, and this is Israel. You may not like the truth, you may have strange propaganda based articles to try to deflect from the truth, but it remains the truth. So as a challenge, I ask you this:
If you wish to continue your ‘racist’ argument, can you firstly, provide a nation in the region with a consistent record as strong as Israel’s in providing freedoms for all its citizens?
As for additional antisemitism. I heard a frequent call to suggest Israel was as bad as the Nazis. What is clear is that Israel is not as bad as the Nazis. Israel are nothing like Nazis. Even surrounded by enemies (Germany wasn’t), Israel has consistently sought peace and offered freedom. To its own citizens, all of them, Israel offers those human rights enshrined in international law. Syria, with their use of chemical weapons and mass slaughter are not even as bad as the Nazis, nor are all the brutal regimes in the area. Saying Israel is like Nazi Germany is a vile slur. But is it antisemitic? Consider this. Throwing a banana at someone is disrespectful. Throwing it as a Scotsman for example, may see you get punched. But it isn’t racist. Throwing a banana at a black man however, most certainly is racist. And entirely unacceptable. A vile disgraceful racist attack. So whilst I can argue that banana throwing is merely disrespectful, I cannot argue that thrown at the wrong target, it doesn’t become a racist act. Similarly, exaggerating a nations actions by calling them Nazi-like is merely disrespectful and inaccurate. Unless the target is the Jews. At this point, it becomes a racist act. Suggesting it is not, merely shows you either fail to grasp the severity of the accusation or the seriousness of the Nazi acts against the Jews.
It is pointless however listing all of the antisemitic remarks, because for whatever reason you are hiding behind subjective terminology like the use of the world ‘legitimate’. You would prefer to get into subjective and deflective arguments over definitions, because in those rabbit holes, ignorance is capable of holding its own. What I will do is say I am astounded you talk to me as if you understand the Jewish community and Jewishness better than I do. And here is where you use statistics and distort everything in reach.
The survey does not say 59% said they were not Zionist at all. You completely misread it. What it does is use Zionism as a self identification and see how many Jews were prepared to use it. The result – 59%. This 59% are clearly Zionist. However the survey also showed (on the same page -9- and what you chose to ignore) that 90% support Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state. Those 90% cannot be anti-Zionists. Which automatically places anti-Zionists into a box with a ceiling of 10%. If you were here for serious debate, we could argue why over 30% of Zionists do not self identify as Zionists, but you are not here for that, so I won’t bother. What it does also show, including an additional statistic about 93% holding Israel important as part of their Jewish identity, is that I am right, these anti-Zionist Jews are a tiny minority, and if used as a method of attacking the mainstream, that move could be viewed as a form of religious persecution.
So I ask you a second question. Why are you taking a tiny fringe minority, completely unrepresentative of mainstream UK Jewry, and using them to attack Jews?
What never ceases to amaze me is how people without real grounding, think they can grab at different pieces of information, and go after those who are clearly far better read in the field than they are. It is a sign of the times I think.
I take it from your reply that the only examples you can cite as antisemitism are being photographed and being refused entry into an event!!! – Definitely scratching the bottom of the barrel and just a touch of a persecution complex there don’t you think?
To say Israel is not a racist state when there are over forty laws which apply to Palestinians only is flying in the face of reality.
The premise upon which you challenge me to “provide a nation in the region with a consistent record as strong as Israel’s in providing freedoms for all its citizens?” is laughable. Israel does NOT provide freedom for all its citizens, precisely because it is a racist state.
The statement in the survey:
“Although about 90% support Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state and express attachment to it, only 59% consider themselves to be a ‘Zionist'”
Contradicts your earlier point that 90~93% of Jews tick the Zionist box.
You obviously have a certain notoriety when it comes to supporting the inhuman actions of Israel towards the Palestinians and it seems the Zionist myths and propaganda have won you over.
For the benefit of those who haven’t seen it, in the article below, Jonathan Ofir forensically destroys your arguments:
As ex Zionist Miko Peled said, when many Zionists find out the truth and myths about Zionism they are deeply hurt about being mislead.
Maybe one day, just like Albert Einstein, you will also accept the iniquities of Zionism? Stranger things have happened!
Jack, really, a troll response. Is this all you have?
No, being excluded from an event because of my beliefs, and being stalked and photographed by people who share antisemitic conspiracy theory is not scraping the bottom of a barrel. It is quite a vile situation to be in TBH.
>’To say Israel is not a racist state when there are over forty laws which apply to Palestinians only is flying in the face of reality.’
Name them. If you are referring to Adalah’s list, you’ve been led up the garden path. Please do not link to Adalah… I want to see ’40 laws that apply’ only to Arabs living in Israel.
>’Although about 90% support Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state and express attachment to it, only 59% consider themselves to be a ‘Zionist’” Contradicts your earlier point that 90~93% of Jews tick the Zionist box.’
No it doesn’t. Apply yourself. How can 90% believe in Israel’s right to be a Jewish state if more than 10% are anti-Zionist? You are clearly wrong on this, pulled the wrong statistic off the survey, and seem unsure about which way to turn. Arguing over a community you clearly know nothing about was not a wise move.
>’Jonathan Ofir forensically destroys your arguments’:
Ofir did no such thing and he knows it. He deflected and his response was weak. Here is my response to that disgraceful Mondoweiss article that provided a smokescreen for hard core antisemites. – https://david-collier.com/mondoweiss-freespeechinisrael-hit-gutter/
Either deal seriously with the issues or leave me alone.
Ah, the ‘you’re a troll’ comment, a sign of desperation and failure to show any rationale for Israel’s brutality towards the Palestinians.
The stark truth is that Palestine has been colonised by a group of European Zionists without any connection to, or justification for being there. When Palestinians resist, which under international law they are fully entitled to do, they are slaughtered in their thousands by the IDF thugs.
Zionists infiltrate our political parties with the sole intention of protecting Israel from the criticism it warrants.
Brave non Zionists in the Jewish community recognise Israel’s crimes and are vilified by Zionists for daring to speak out against them.
“Don’t link to the Adalah list” Ok I won’t, I’ll publish it in full.
There are more than forty laws, so take your pick, most of them are intended to limit the rights of Palestinians in Israel.
“Stop-and-Frisk” Law – Amendment No. 5 to the Power for Maintaining Public Security Law
Civil and Political Rights Active 2016
“Anti-Terror” (Counter-Terrorism) Law
Criminal Law and Procedures Civil and Political Rights Freedom of Association Active 2016
“Expulsion of MKs” Law – Amendment No. 44 to Basic Law: Knesset
Civil and Political Rights Political Participation Active 2016
NGO “Funding Transparency” Law
Freedom of Association Active 2016
Mandatory minimum sentences for convicted stone-throwers – Amendment No. 120 to the Israeli Penal Code
Criminal Law and Procedures Active 2015
Revoking child allowances from parents of children convicted of security offenses – Amendment No. 163 to the National Insurance Act
Economic Rights Active 2015
Fines on parents of stone-throwers – Amendment No. 20 to the Youth (Care and Supervision) Law
Criminal Law and Procedures Active 2015
Order stripping essential procedural safeguards from “security” detainees – Amendment No. 4 to the Criminal Procedure Law (Detainee Suspected of Security Offence) (Temporary Order)
Criminal Law and Procedures Active 2015
Increased Governance and Raising the Qualifying Election Threshold – Bill to Amend Basic Law: The Government (1160)
Political Participation Active 2014
Civil Wrongs Law – Amendment No. 8 (Liability of the State)
1967 Occupied Territories Active 2012
Criminal Procedure Law – Interrogating Suspects – Amendment No. 6
Criminal Law and Procedures Active 2012
Income Tax Ordinance – Amendment No. 191
1967 Occupied Territories Active 2012
Israeli Prisons Ordinance Amendment No. 43 – Prisoner-Attorney Meetings
Criminal Law and Procedures Active 2012
Israeli Prisons Ordinance – Amendment No. 40 (Meetings with Lawyers)
Criminal Law and Procedures Active 2011
“Anti-Boycott Law” – Prevention of Damage to the State of Israel through Boycott
Civil and Political Rights Active 2011
Foreign Property Ownership – Israel Lands Law (Amendment No. 3)
Land and Planning Rights Active 2011
“Admissions Committees Law” – Cooperative Societies Ordinance – Amendment No. 8
Land and Planning Rights Active 2011
Citizenship Law – Amendment No. 10
Citizenship Active 2011
“Nakba Law” – Amendment No. 40 to the Budgets Foundations Law
Civil and Political Rights Active 2011
“Foreign Government Funding Law” – Law on Disclosure Requirements for Recipients of Support from a Foreign State Entity
Freedom of Association Active 2011
Law to Strip Payments from a Current or Former Member of Knesset due to a Crime
Economic Rights Active 2011
Extension of Detention – Criminal Procedure Law (Suspects of Security Offenses) (Temporary Order) – Amendment No. 2
Criminal Law and Procedures Active 2010
“Negev Individual Settlements” – Negev Development Authority Law – Amendment No. 4
Land and Planning Rights Active 2010
Absorption of Discharged Soldiers Law – Amendment No. 12
Education Active 2010
Land (Acquisition for Public Purposes) Ordinance – Amendment No. 10
Land and Planning Rights Active 2010
“Pardon Law” or “Amnesty Law” – Termination of Proceedings and Deletion of Records in the Disengagement Plan Law
Civil and Political Rights Active 2010
Regional Councils Law (Date of General Elections) Special Amendment No. 6
Political Participation Active 2009
Israel Land Administration Law – Amendment No. 7
Land and Planning Rights Active 2009
National Priority Areas – The Economic Efficiency Law – Legislative Amendments for Implementing the Economic Plan for 2009-2010
Economic Rights Active 2009
Child Vaccinations and Child Allowances – Economic Efficiency Law
Economic Rights Active 2009
Absorption of Discharged Soldiers Law – Amendment No. 7: Benefits for Discharged Soldiers Education Active 2008
Criminal Procedure Law – Interrogating Suspects – Amendment No. 4
Criminal Law and Procedures Active 2008
Criminal Procedure Law (Detainee Suspected of Security Offence) (Temporary Order)
Criminal Law and Procedures Active 2006
“Ban on Family Unification” – Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law (Temporary Order)
Citizenship Active 2003
Law of Political Parties – Amendment No. 12
Political Participation Active 2002
Use of Hebrew Date Law
Culture and Language Active 1998
Political Participation Active 1994
Basic Law: The Government
Criminal Law and Procedures Active 1992
Second Authority for Television and Radio Law
Culture and Language Active 1990
The Golan Heights Law
1967 Occupied Territories Active 1981
Sources of Law Active 1981
Public Lands Law (Eviction of Squatters)
Land and Planning Rights Active 1981
Basic Law: Jerusalem, Capital of Israel
1967 Occupied Territories Active 1980
Foundations of Law Act
Sources of Law Active 1980
Religious Jewish Services Law
Religion Active 1971
Law of Yad Yitzhak Ben-Zvi (1969) and Law of Mikve Israel Agricultural School (1976)
Culture and Language Active 1969
Protection of Holy Sites Law
Religion Active 1967
National Planning and Building Law -Limitation of Water, Electricity and Telephone
Land and Planning Rights Active 1965
National Planning and Building Law
Land and Planning Rights Active 1965
Broadcasting Authority Law
Culture and Language Active 1965
Basic Law: Israel Lands
Land and Planning Rights Active 1960
Israel Land Administration Law
Land and Planning Rights Active 1960
Basic Law: The Knesset
Political Participation Active 1958
Jewish National Fund Law
Land and Planning Rights Active 1953
State Education Law
Education Active 1953
Land Acquisition Law (Actions and Compensation)
Land and Planning Rights Active 1953
World Zionist Organization-Jewish Agency (Status) Law
Culture and Language Active 1952
Entry into Israel Law
Citizenship Active 1952
Citizenship Active 1952
Law of Return
Citizenship Active 1950
Absentees’ Property Law
Land and Planning Rights Active 1950
State Stamp Law
National Identity Symbols Active 1949
Flag and Emblem Law
National Identity Symbols Active 1949
Law and Government Ordinance, Article 18A
Religion Active 1948
Defense Regulations (Times of Emergency), Regulation 125 (Closed Zones)
Land and Planning Rights Active 1945
Trade with the Enemy Ordinance
Culture and Language Active 193
I called you a troll, because you are clearly using the transparent tactic of simply dropping anything that is not going well for you and moving on to something else.
You tried saying people stifle legitimate criticism of Israel with claims of antisemitism, but didn’t get far with that. No longer in your posts.
Suggested I have a mental illness, which I ignored
Threw out the usual ‘illegal colonisation’ ‘wholesale slaughter’ comments without providing an ounce of evidence you have an argument built on more than ignorance and bias. When addressed, rather than fight the case, you leave them.
Got lost inside a survey you made a bad hash of reading. It was quickly exposed you were wrong.
Never responded to the Nazi / banana analogy
Tried to argue over a community you clearly know nothing about. That didn’t go well either.
Disgracefully dismissed personal acts of racism as scraping the bottom of a barrel
And now when I asked you not to come at me with the Adalah list, you come at me with the Adalah list. So let me address that.
You had said “there are over forty laws which apply to Palestinians only”, when discussing the Arabs living in Israel. So I asked you for them. What you have provided is nothing like what you suggested you had. Putting aside those in the list clearly referring to the 1967 lands, I see nothing which negatively applies only to the Arabs inside Israel. There are some issues over not forcing them to do army service, but I am sure having that type of concern for the community won’t be held up against Israel. It is like the UK issuing laws favouring minorities or women that address inequality in the workplace. So then what is left in this list then, this one held up as proof of Israeli Apartheid? The answer is absolutely nothing.
You see it is like this, this is how the distortion works. The UK makes a tax law change that propagandists argue, targets the poor more than the rich. As a relative part of the population, non whites are more likely to earn outside of the highest tax bracket. Adalah therefore can claim this is a racist law. Get it yet?
If you are non white, you may be more likely to be anti-monarchist, therefore all UK laws relating to the monarch become ‘racist laws’.
How about the cross in the UK flag? A definite sign of an Apartheid state.
It is a propaganda list meant to allow weak minded individuals to obscure forum debates with long lists few people have the ability to understand.
That’s what is there. I mean stop and search laws… really??? Do you ever ask yourself why there is so little in your locker? You have built up this imagery of the most vile, evil, racist, butchering state in the world. Of powerful Zionists who stop you from presenting your absolute truth before the public. But when it comes down to arguing your case, there is so little ammunition around. Do you posses the self-awareness to address this? A little introspection? Or do you discard this weakness as simply a sign ‘Zionist propaganda’ is superior?
“Facing raw antisemitism at the Labour Party Conference 2017”
A claim you’ve so far not been able to substantiate with anything other than feeble observations.
One of your so called confirmations of antisemitism is that you were photographed by people you seem to regard as dubious. Well if that is any proof, you are also guilty by displaying Miko Peled’s photograph on your page with the intention of denigrating a fellow Jew with lies*. And by the way, “the leaflet on the far left” was not “peddling Miko Peled’s book.” it was advertising his talks at various fringe meetings but you threw that in just so you could accuse him of ‘hate speech*’. Maybe it would be beneficial to you if you obtained a copy of his book and became a little more acquainted with the facts surrounding Israel’s crimes.
Far from antisemitism, what you did see is overwhelming support for the Palestinians which has so angered you that, as Zionists often do, you have lashed out with a baseless statement and then wandered off into a diatribe.
Zionists make accusations of antisemitism at the slightest excuse so that they can try and justify Israel’s existence and in doing so they have devalued the term. Many of their own actions encourage antisemitism, the cynical might say on purpose, yet when they vilify Jews who reject Zionism they too are being antisemitic.
‘Hypocritical’ doesn’t even begin to describe their views.
I do not know what David Colier is complaining about although it is amusing. His only purpose in attending Jewish anti-Zionist or Palestinian meetings is to discredit them so why does he need to attend them? He can do that anyway!
It is untrue that ‘These people push for the destruction of the most democratic nation in the Middle East. The only nation where a real Labour supporter would be welcome’ Israel is an extremely undemocratic state (not a nation – Israel’s Supreme Court has ruled twice against such a concept – Tamarin & Uzi Ornan – that is the foundation stone of why Israel is not a democratic state).
Ruling over 5 million Palestinians for 50 years when they have no civil or political rights, subjecting them to a military dictatprship e.g. military courts where children as young as 123 appear shackled and w hose conviction rates are some 99.7%. Where settlers are at liberty to attack olive g roves, crops and unarmed Palestinians. In Israel itself although Palestinians have a few rights they are strictly segregated, subject to institutionalised discrimination eg Access to Communities Act which allows Jewish communities to bar Arabs from living there. An ethnocracy is not a democracy.
It is not true that 93% of British Jews see Israel as part of their identity. Some 59% in the most authoritative survey that Yachad commissioned from City University on attitudes to Israel identified as Zionists and 31%, an increase of 12% in 5 years did not. In any event it would not matter because it is a reactionary identity.
The CST regularly turns anti-Zionist Jews away from Zionist events and people getting thrown out are physically assaulted. This is a matter of record. So if excluding someone, even if they themselves are a fascist or racist is an act of fascism then the word no longer has any meaning.
An example of the biased and distorted nature of everything David Collier rights is his statement ‘Tony Greenstein and Jacqueline Walker, both of whom have been accused of antisemitism themselves.’ Yes by Zionists. I have fought fascism all by life without Zionists ever been alongside us. How can you fight fascism and racism when you agree with the fascists and racists. Virtually every far=-Right and neo-Nazi group in Europe and the USA supports Israel and Zionism. E.g. the new German Alternative Party which is trying to rehabilitate the Nazi regime. they love Israel as does Le Pen, Geert Wilders, Herr Strache etc. Richard Spencer of the US alt right even declares himself a White Zionist and David Duke and Andrew ANglin of the Daily Stormer just loved Yair Netanyahu’s antisemitic cartoon attacking George Soros.
So we need to take no lessons from you on antisemitism. It is a stick you wield against antiracists and only antiracists. when I am welcome at a JNF meeting or a Zionist even we will think of returning the favour. Until then what you say is completel hypocrisy.
You defend a racist state with the same arguments that those who defended apartheid in South Africa use which is that the neighbouring states are pretty horrific. Yes they are but Western imperialism has made them so.
Tony. It does not matter what you believe my purpose is. I am a member of the press, this is a free country, and every excuse you bake up in your head to restrict my access, only further exposes you as the fascist you are. This was a fringe event at the Labour Party conference, the chair of JVL has said the group is not ‘anti-Zionist’, and is ‘inclusive’. At the door, you said I was too ‘Zionist’ to be allowed entry. I am not even sure you had the right to turn people away, but you chose to anyway. That is the type of ‘ideology’ you support. A blatant denial of press freedom because you don’t like the views of the journalist. People who really believe in freedom, have every reason to fear thugs like you, and we can all only hope that this type of totalitarian ideology never gets close to the halls of power in the UK.
Of course it is true that these people I mention in my blog seek the destruction of the only democracy in the region. It is irrelevant that you can find flaws with Israel. Have you seen what happened in Spain today? Have you seen the black / white friction in the US. Do you know about the inequality, poverty and disenfranchised communities in the UK? All societies are imperfect. Saying Israel is not a democracy, and then listing a few things that are no better or worse than twenty dozen other states isn’t an argument. FACTUALLY, if Israeli freedom was replicated throughout the Middle East, the region would be a beacon of democracy. Your argument is too weak to be given serious attention.
Yes, there are problems beyond the 67 lines. Nobody would say there aren’t. But they only allow you to create rabbit holes to discuss, because you are only interested in using these situations as propaganda tools that will allow you to attack Israeli legitimacy in the 49 lines. All of the things you talk about (and there are many distortions & propaganda points in there) do not ADDRESS THE CAUSE at all. I was there for Oslo, I was there for both Intifada 1 and 2. I remember the days before the checkpoints, before the wall, and I remember why they were put in place. Just as I remember why Gaza looks like it does today. Coming at me with human interest stories as a way of deflecting from the violent Arab cause behind today’s situation, won’t work with me. If you were legitimate, I’d sit down with you and discuss a way out of the mess. But you are not. So go try on someone else.
As you know you are distorting the survey. I know you know, because I personally saw you try the same argument on Hannah Weisfeld from Yachad, when she spoke at Sussex University. This Yachad survey is her survey and she soon put you in your place. In fact she chopped you into little pieces. So repeating the exercise even though you know you are cherry-picking the statistics and distorting them, highlights the propagandist you are. The survey shows that 90% believe Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state. This figure categorically places you into a tiny fringe of people on the edge and drifting away from the community. People like Idrissi, who married a Muslim, Barnard who has an Arab boyfriend, Walker who had no Jewish upbringing and so on. We both know it, so there is little point pretending otherwise with me. The less you do as a Jew, the more likely you are to join JVL. When there is nothing Jewish in your life at all, then you are ripe for JVL picking. The situation is absurd. I know you seek to pretend there is some silent majority out there, but there isn’t. 90%. You are stuck into a 10% box that also includes many ultra-orthodox members, which makes your own category even more irrelevant. Using this imaginary voice to bash mainstream Jews over the head with, simply because ideologically you are out with the Marxists, is a form of religious persecution. Against Jews it is antisemitism. Live with it.
As for your South African analogies. Israel is nothing like Apartheid. Nothing. It is a weak attempt to push a propaganda campaign to convince a few weak minded people it is in their interests to boycott Israel. You don’t speak for Jews and you most certainly do not speak for the Arabs. One secular state? Show me the Palestinian group WHO ARE NOT SEEKING TO WAVE A Palestinian flag in their own state? You are a liar and a fascist who is driven by his own demons and represents absolutely none of the sides in the conflict.
I don’t think he will find the time to reply David . Too busy recommending shooting Tories on his twitter stream, and on the day when 50 + were shot in the States.
A sociopath if ever there was.
Too busy firing intimidatory but absurd emails at the Leader of Brighton Council.
David you keep mentioning that Idrissi married a Muslim ( a lot)
Your point being ?
Naomi is perfectly entitled to make whatever life choices she chooses to make. I have no problem with whomever she has chosen to marry, it would be silly to imply that I have, and I wish her and her family only best wishes and good health.
Naomi has no doubt made a lot of life choices I am just wondering how you came to pick that one at random, especially as at the same time you mentioned that another participant had a Muslim boy friend but you now seem to have edited that bit out.
This doesn’t look good.
And you seem to have a problem with the name of Naomi’s child. Do you think people are interested in the child’s name, outside the making and receiving of a racist point ?
I have been more than patient with you. I reject your insinuations and I have not edited anything out. The comment about the boyfriend (search page for ‘Barnard’,) is still there.
A point of fact – ‘Muslim’ is not a race. It is rather shameful, that someone like you, who spends all their time trying to deflect attention away from antisemites, and tries to set the bar so incredibly high, when it comes to identifying ‘antisemitism’, should stoop so low here as to try to smear me with a ‘racist’ brush, with baseless empty insinuations and comments such as ‘it doesn’t look good’.
I would oppose, as would almost all mainstream Jews, the idea of a Rabbi being married to a Muslim. Not because we have anything against people marrying Muslims, but simply because if a Rabbi were to marry one, the role of Rabbi would become inappropriate. This is nothing do to with racism. I have nothing against people eating bacon, but if a Jew were to eat bacon, I doubt the position of a Rabbi in an orthodox synagogue would still be open to him.
Now whether you like it or not, those who want to speak for mainstream Jews, should act like Mainstream Jews. Oddly, the less Jewish you are in your behaviour (who you marry, how you raise your kids, what you eat, how you celebrate Jewish holidays, how you identify with Israel), the more likely you are to join JVL. That creates an obvious red flag. Given how important continuity is to the Jewish faith, JVL is led by those families who are the most unlikely to provide another generation of people who will identify as Jews. There is nothing wrong with their life choices, marrying Muslims, Vicars, naming their children Muslim names and so on, but it is NOT RACIST to point out, that given these life choices, they are no longer examples of those people who should represent mainstream Jewry.
There is nothing racist about me at all, and it angers me when I am unnecessarily attacked simply as a way of deflecting attention away from Jew hate. Seriously, given how you oppose every definition of antisemitism, it is shocking, the way you ran in so quickly to use the ‘racist’ card. A weak attempt to discredit the man and not the argument. If you try another cheap shot like that on me here, it will be the last post you make on this site.
David I don’t oppose every definition of antisemitism. I accept THE definition of antisemitism, Something like hatred of Jews, discrimination against Jews, persecution of Jews. The meaning of the expression established by the some forces of the uses of the expression by the sovereign people, the 1.5 billion speakers of the language.
It is you guys that are narcissist enough to think you can sit around a table and disenfranchise the people.
As for your last comment. Clearly I have hit a nerve, Cest la guerre o:)
So if some antisemite who hates Jews and thinks they control the banks and media, changes the word Jew to Zionist when he talks about it, then it no longer gets picked up by you…okay….
Well if he hates Jews may he burn in hell. But he surely is entitled to a fair trial
‘Tony Greenstein and Jacqueline Walker, both of whom have been accused of antisemitism themselves.’
‘Yes by Zionists.’
And by the Labour Party which has suspended Greenstein.
Even JVL – – which has taken Hawwash and Tapash – rejected Greenstein
Interestingly the LP cannot find the balls to ” move to trial ” so to speak. It is well over a year now and since the LP dare not test it out in the quasi compliance unit ” court” we must assume them to be innocent.
Labour have expelled Moshe Machover. Long overdue.
Harv Moshe was a free hit. Come back to me when they expel Livingstone, Greenstein and Wlker.
Harv obviously knows something I don’t o:)
Jack: ” There are more than forty laws, so take your pick, most of them are intended to limit the rights of Palestinians in Israel.”
Me: “Unexpectedly helpful contribution Jack. Having perused your list it has made me realise that despite our best efforts to protect our grannies, young mums and little kids whether Jew, Christian or Arab from murderers, stabbers and bombers, limit the extent to which our democratically elected MKs can incite treason on the floor of the Knesset with impunity and terror can be rewarded with a monthly stipend, we are simply not doing enough. We clearly need MORE legislation in order to catch up with the volume already on the statute books in the UK and the EU. Thanks for drawing this to our attention. Perhaps you are not the complete wanker that you first appeared to be.
If we want to understand what has happened inside Labour, we must ask this question: At what point did support for a peace process, or compromise or negotiations, become an expellable offence?
David this is where you really lose it and sail off into the ga ga land sunset.
David why can’t you cope with being called a racist ? If I don’t get called an antisemitic racist more than a dozen times a day I get worried that I am not a sufficiently hard working Palestinianist. I am perfectly secure in my knowledge of what I am. You seem a lot less secure in your knowledge of what you are. All this lower lip trembling melodrama.
You seem to think I am trembling at the prospect of expulsion from your blog. I I fear you are confusing me with someone else.
The prob is this electronic location is your life. To me it is a playground. A coffee break.
OK time for sayonara. Go on Zio break my heart.
motherfucker kiss the ground
I think this may be a pre-flounce, flounce as the old booby couldn’t help himself but produce some media response earlier in the thread. What a tart. Wonder who his paymasters will re-assign. Hopefully someone more challenging.
Why do I have trouble with being called a racist? My great grandparents generation suffered from racism. They, along with many other Jews fled the pogroms, as racists turned on their Jewish neighbours. They had to leave their home. My grandparents generation suffered from growing nationalism throughout Europe. It turned on anything different, and with no other minority yet within reach, it was the Jews that began to feel the full force of this. By this point, both the UK and US, had more or less shut their doors because they didn’t want any more Jews. This of course, led to that generation, and the generation of my parents, being exterminated like rats. Those that survived left their homes too. My generation is different, in that now there is a homeland for the Jews to run to, but the hate persists nevertheless. I engage in a fight against those that wish me harm, against racists, and the descendants of those that have been hunting Jews since, well, forever. Some Jews are already running from their homes. So when someone thinks, I personally align with racist ideologies, I admit it hits a personal soft spot. It is like calling a victim whose life has been shaped to a degree by being robbed every week, a thief.
On the banning issue. Stephen. We both know you are dying for me to ban you. I posted on the JVL blog, they deleted my comment. My polite and on topic posts are frequently edited or deleted on sites that don’t like Jews very much. Greenstein posts here unedited, I get deleted if I post on his site. You want to be able to say I am the one who stifles argument. I have values, and perhaps it bothers you when you see people actually capable of standing by the things they believe in. The hard left talks a lot about free speech but doesn’t practice it, it chokes them I run my site this way. My removing you from this site will become a trophy you can wear, that will remove the context of why I stopped your posting.
As I have often told you, if I stop your posting here, it will be because of off-topic and personal attacks AND nothing to do with your politics. As everyone knows, I seek open debate and am loathe to ban anyone. That is how it will stay. So, you can ‘test me’, but all that will do is probably make me place your posts into a moderating queue, where I let anything through that isn’t a personal attack. I have a value system, openness and debate are important to me, and no matter how much you want to wear that badge, I am hopeful you won’t stoop to the level required to receive it.
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