One of the reasons I won’t be criticising Israel today is because I am in London. I am not facing 40,000 rioters sent by Hamas to the Israeli border. Instead I am safely tucked away in a relatively secure part of the globe, with the armies of British enemies pushed back through centuries of brutal conflict. Even in the last two decades many have died in the Middle East because the British army, like that of the United States, protects its borders and global interests by fighting it’s battles far from away from our shores. Our enemies are not even allowed to get close to us.
More recently, our streets have remained silent from protest whilst the Syrian conflict has butchered half a million people. Given the absolute silence in the face of real Genocide and ethnic cleansing occurring across the globe, little is more hypocritical than global tears over the deaths of what we know now were mainly Hamas operatives on the Gaza border. One of those nations involved in the Syrian massacres, Turkey, has just expelled the Israeli Ambassador. Turkey? Erdogan is surely having a laugh.
Hamas and Gaza
It is thirteen years since Israel withdrew from Gaza. Pulling back its forces, dismantling settlements and forcibly removing Jewish residents. Almost immediately Hamas won an election and then tried to replace the Palestinian police with Hamas forces in Gaza. This internal conflict eventually led to the ‘Battle of Gaza‘ between Fatah and Hamas, which resulted in Hamas taking full control of the Strip.
The history since then has been tragic. The growing Gazan population has been under the control of a terrorist regime intent on conflict rather than dialogue. With international funding looking after the basic necessities of daily existence, Hamas funds have gone towards fighting Israel rather than improving the lives of its citizens. There have been three major conflicts and the last one in 2014, was devastating.
The Gaza Gambit
Yitzhak Rabin, Radio interview, July 24, 1995:
The nightmare stories of the Likud are well known. After all, they promised rockets from Gaza as well. For a year, Gaza has been largely under the rule of the Palestinian Authority. There has not been a single rocket. Nor will there be any
I remember these arguments. The one where the Likud party leaders were called liars and warmongers for daring to suggest rockets would be fired on Israel from Gaza. My main criticism of the left is that there never seems to be any notion of accountability. The same groups of people who were so quick to turn a blind eye to early Palestinian transgressions of the Oslo agreements, were also pressuring Israel to give up the Golan for peace with Syria. Imagine how different the situation would be today had that exchange taken place and Iranian forces were edging towards the banks of the Kinneret. Supporters of that move simply shrug and move on to the next risk they would like Israel to take.
Gaza today is unsustainable. A fast growing population inside an area that cannot provide for itself. The Israelis know it, the Palestinians know it, and the rest of the world knows it. So of course do Hamas, which has led to the largest hostage situation in history. The primary purpose of Hamas always involved killing Israelis and its failure to develop into a responsible organ of government has meant the success and failure of Hamas depends on its ability to do precisely that.
Before the disengagement there were opportunities of direct contact with Israelis. Both settlements and soldiers were present, making targets easy to reach. Sharon ended that when he separated the Gaza Strip from Israel. The rockets were the Hamas response to this. An Islamist message that read ‘see, we can still reach you’. Israel’s response to 2014 rocket fire left Hamas under no illusions of the price that would be paid for such folly. Then came the tunnels. A by-product of smuggling was another field of expertise that permitted grand ideas of striking terror into Israeli hearts. Then Israel developed a method of detecting them.
What is left is just the border itself. The only point on the map that a terrorist from Gaza can still try to hurt an Israeli. Hamas has to show it can inflict damage on Israel and the only card it holds are the civilians of the Gaza strip. So what we see now is not a grand peaceful protest or uprising of the Gazan population, it is a last ditch effort from Hamas to show the local population it can still do what it was meant to do. If Hamas cannot do even this, then what purpose does it have? We are facing the largest hostage situation the world has ever seen.
The meaningless ‘PR coup’
Hamas are weaker than they have ever been. Every strategy to weaken Hamas that has taken place over the last few years, by the Israelis, the Egyptians and the PA, has this ‘hostage situation’ as the beating heart. Yet people over in the west keep talking about how Hamas is winning the propaganda war. This is utter pointless poppycock.
Firstly, it does not matter how many people think Hezbollah won a PR victory in 2006. What matters to Israel is that the border has remained silent since then and Hezbollah maintain an interest in keeping it quiet. Israel’s actions saved Israeli lives. That is the primary concern of Israel.
Those same ‘useful idiots’ talk of the 2014 conflict in the same way also saying ‘Hamas won the PR war’. Yet Hamas have been scared to fire rockets ever since. The standing of Hamas has been devastated by the events of the last few years. Have you noticed how quiet the other Palestinians have been during this confrontation? Can you imagine this twenty years ago? The streets of Nablus and Jenin and East Jerusalem would have been burning in solidarity. They aren’t, because Hamas have already LOST the PR war where it matters. Hamas are left sending their forces to the border to cause trouble because they have no other option.
Israel is in the business of defending its citizens, Hamas and Hezbollah are in the business of killing Israeli citizens. So given the lack of casualties on both borders since the last major conflicts, Israel did what it set out to do. This I think was the best tweet of recent days:
The pathetic frenzy
So what really happened? Hamas, with little alternative but to create noise to justify its continued existence to the people it holds hostage, organised a protest. They sent out their operatives, whipped up the crowd, tried to break through the border and Israel successfully defended against the attack.
Hamas know the way it works and their machine operates smoothly. They have factories in Gaza working around the clock that send social media images out to anti-Israel groups. Thousands of ‘sock’ accounts that pretend to be men, women or young children posting about personal tragedy. Many making friends with anti-Israel activists also looking for donations to help pay for their ‘food’ for the month. This machinery is ready to roll into overdrive at moments like this.
Western media are virtually blind in Gaza and are dependent on Palestinian sources that provide them with information. The news networks lap it all up and for a few hours, images of a massacre fill our screens.
This is our battle, not Israel’s. Suddenly we are hit by a pathetic frenzy of reports talking about how Israeli soldiers are simply shooting at innocent protestors like ‘fish in a barrel’. Fake news takes control of the airwaves. The people who let everyone down in this situation are not the Israelis, but the journalists who simply regurgitate Hamas propaganda like mindless fools.
As it turns out, Hamas, a proscribed terrorist organisation, are claiming fifty of the fatalities were Hamas operatives.
Which means the ‘massacre’ simply never occurred. Almost every report that we have seen about the confrontation at the Gaza border was catastrophically wrong.
‘Shameful’ and ‘critical’
Watching instant images of a conflict such as this is challenging. The hostages in Gaza are real people caught in an awful situation. We cannot know exactly what we are watching, but it is designed by the factory in Gaza to make us flinch. Israel knows that it will only take one small band of terrorists to break through and slaughter some Israelis. At which point Hamas can declare a real ‘PR’ victory. Which means this cannot be allowed to happen. So on the one side you have forty-thousand people rioting, with as many cameras as terrorists amongst them, on the other an Israel that cannot allow one group to cross that line.
It is a war, not a small gang fight in South London, or a low scale riot in Tottenham. It is a radical Islamic terror group trying to find a way to inflict casualties on Israel.
So some Jewish supporters begin to ask ‘wasn’t there another way’? Uncomfortable with the scenes they have watched, an unable yet to know the truth, it is easier to simply join in with the criticism. So they run with the suggestion that whilst they ‘support Israel’, they think that this time Israel has been too aggressive. This as everyone else in the Middle East like the Egyptians are fully aware of the truth:
So as Egyptian’s were screaming at the Hamas leader telling him he had ‘blood on his hands’, the Jewish Chronicle’s editor Stephen Pollard led with this tweet:
And a Yachad activist Amos shared a disgraceful event on Facebook calling for people to attend a ‘Kaddish‘ for Gaza in Parliament Square.
Even the normally sound Daniel Sugarman (JC) ran with a ‘why I criticise Israel‘ article on the events at the Gaza border. Notice the keywords in the URL of the article. They could have been written by Electronic Intifada:
There is no logic to this reflex. Just because we are uncomfortable with the actions Israel has to take, it does not make those actions wrong. It is good that we remain self-critical, but aren’t the experts on this the ones that we need to listen to. At what point do people living in the comfort of secure London, know more than the Israeli generals making on-the-spot decisions with all of the information at their disposal?
We are at war with Hamas
Too many armchair Generals are feeding a frenzy of ignorance rather than just waiting for the dust to settle. How can anybody have known enough to draw responsible conclusions about what was taking place. Just because the frenzy is there – we don’t have to feed it. (Video from Israel Advocacy Movement)
If my family was living in Sderot or Nahal Oz, I would want them protected by the IDF. I would know that the IDF, the only force between the forty-thousand rioters and my family, would do whatever they feel is necessary to protect us. This is what was foremost in the minds of the IDF soldiers who defended the borders against the Hamas attacks. Not how it all looked on TV.
So no, I won’t be criticising Israel today. I don’t know if there was a way in hindsight to reduce casualties further, but military operations don’t operate in hindsight. It does now seem like almost every fatality was a Hamas operative. What I also know is millions of armchair Generals are pretending they know more than the experts do. Millions of people that are not protecting the state of Israel. The IDF does that.
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246 thoughts on “Gaza, Hamas and why I won’t be criticising Israel today”
Actually I have to disagree about best tweets. Surely the tweet of the year was that of Cathy Higgins yesterday.
To anybody that calls me atisemitic today
I would say that to you but I don’t use foul language, Mr Bellamy. Rather, I invite you to the Gaza border, where you will the result of Hamas and their genocidal antisemitism. It’s called eliminationist antisemitism. The Nazi experience should have alerted people to this meaning, but for those like yourself, either you are illiterate or just don’t care. “Here’s the thing” as some say: we Jews have had enough of being murdered, so we are going to defend ourselves. We don’t want to harm anyone – indeed, we had to twice repair the gas pipelines broken by Hamas, before we could open the Kerem Crossing. We opened it and sent in our trucks filled with humanitarian aid, but Hamas prevented the delivery.
You seem to say you are a clever fellow, so explain to me why Hamas prevents humanitarian aid; prevents Gazans from receiving treatment in Israeli hospitals; prevents Gazans from being properly educated? Explain why Hamas force civilians onto buses to the border crossing and force them into a dangerous situation, with their children and babies! Why would anyone do this to their people? Why did a father dump his 7 year old daughter over the border and run away? The IDF saw this terrified child, rescued her and returned her to her mother in Gaza! 40,000 people, innocents deliberately mixed with Hamas/Islamist operatives!
Nonnie Darwish, daughter of an Egyptian general, killed by Israel, grew up in Gaza. She noted: the people of Gaza had a choice, peace and prosperity or Islamic Jihad: they chose Islamic Jihad. Having been fed antisemitic lies about Israelis, she discovered that it was the IDF who protected her and her mother from harm.
Stephen, you have no idea of what is going on in Gaza, but that doesn’t prevent from incessant stupid comments.
Never have claimed to be an authority on Gaza Judah
Would, however, be interested in hearing your opinion on why Israel barred entry to Gaza, among other things, lentils and school books. So that an incredulous Joh Kerry was moved to ask ” Are you afraid of being blown up with a lentil bomb ?”
Ah, Cogat … must be true then.
Prove that it isn’t.
Are you contending that Israel doesn’t have Gaza on a diet?
Yes I am contending exactly that.
(The Gaza shopping mall).
This reply should have appeared here:
Gaza’s thriving economy (via Al jazeera, not a “Zionist” site so you can’t claim bias or disbelief):
Eat Healthy Gaza,
by NOT eating your own children.
“They made us shoot them”
Well, in a small number of cases they did. But most of the time the actions of the deceased do not appear to have warranted the response provided.
John Kerry is an idiot, and always has been.
But that hasn’t stopped you from shooting your jew-baiting mouth off at any and every occasion.
Dumb Bellamy, go to Gaza and join in the fun at the Anti-Islamofascist Wall.
Offer yourself as a Human Shield.
Yet again, David’s untrained pet dog fouls the venue.
Dumb Davy, Dumb Bellamy needs a Second.
Ready. Steady. Nakba.
Get down on it.
Get down on it.
The jew-baiter fouls the venue much more.
“Yet again, David’s untrained pet dog fouls the venue.”
Sure. Why can’t he more like Stephen Bellamy, full of crisp clean fun. lol
Edward your favourite breed then?
YOU are my favorite breed. The Dumb Davy, barking all day long.
I think he’s David’s ‘Baldrick’.
no, the best tweet any day is the one that correctly identifies you as a jew-baiter. Like this one.
VileChaye, there are several references to Jew and Jewish on this page, ALL written by the ‘Israel is a Saint’ sect.
You’re chasing the wrong rabbit.
Dizzy Davy, Keep chasing your tail. Tantalizingly close, yet out of reach.
What Cathy Higgins’ is actually saying is, “you bet I’m an antisemite, and justifiably so.”
FUCK OFF, Cathy
and the same to Bellamy.
Counter chant this…
From the River to the Sea,
Pal-e-STINE Will Never Be!
How can you be a Zionist and deny Palestinians national rights?
Jordan is “Palestine”. 60%+ of people living in Jordan are “Palestinians” as is King Abdullahs wife.
How can you be “progressive” when you support “Palestinians” who kill gays, kill supposed collaborators, use old men, women and CHILDREN as Human Shields?
About 4 million people (who don’t currently have a state and don’t live in Jordan) want to set up a state where they live.By what right do you deny them that self determination?
Progressives tend not characterise people’s views by their membership of a particular group. I’m not a self identifying progressive, so I can frankly agree with you that rather like right wing Israelis, Palestinians as a whole are more likely to hold regressive views on gay people. This whole discussion is however a transparent piece of whataboutery and completely irrelevant to the principle that people should be free to choose their own government – however dysfunctional. I frankly don’t care how Palestinians run or fail to run their own state. All I care is that it ceases to be a Jewish problem.
“How can you be a Zionist and deny Palestinians national rights?”
Where exactly do “Palestinian national rights” come from?
1 thought on “Gaza, Hamas and why I won’t be criticising Israel today”
……… David would get no more free jollies to Israel.
“And a Yachad activist Amos shared a disgraceful event on Facebook calling for people to attend a ‘Kaddish‘ for Gaza in Parliament Square.”
Why is it disgraceful to pray for a political, not violent, solution to the conflict, David?
Dumb Davy, pray that ultra right-wing, ultra-conservative “palestinians”
– stop executing gays in Gaza by pushing them off rooftops
– stop executing fellow Arabs, supposed collaborators, and dragging their bodies behind motorcycles through the streets of Gaza
– stop using children as Human Shields
– stop running people over with cars
– stop stabbing people
– stop firing rockets indiscriminately firing rockets into Israel
– stop calling for Genocide of Jews
Pray for Peace and Pray for Nakba.
Whatabouttery. Two wrongs != one right.
Oh yes it does.
The US bombing the crap out of National SOCIALIST Germany was wrong, but the ends did justify the means when National SOCIALIST Germany, SURRENDERED, UNCONDITIONALLY to the US, UK and SU.
You seem to have gone down the line of saying that wrongs can be met with more wrongs; but then it wouldn’t be a wrong but a proportionate justifiable response. The question of what is right is not a single binary choice between Israel 100% of the time and Palestine 100% of the time. This hyper-partisanship is not normal in a Western democracy. When 62 people die, there should be a pause for thought.
After our last encounter I would like to know why you are so dumb.
Remind me. Jeff was it?
The one thing you don’t explain David, is why Hamas have admitted that so many of those killed were their own terrorists? Of they were winning the PR war, they were wining it with the despicable shooting and killing of unarmed peaceful protestor. As Israel denied that, the world had sympathy for the current Palestinian plight. But once Hamas said 50 out of 62 were Hamas Terrorists and 3 more werea terrorists, that’s 85%! And now so many of us in the diaspora, here In UK,feel relieved and reassured, by Hamas of all people!
I can only guess at possible reasons for this admission – martyrdom, payments, so Hamas feel emboldened that the world has sympathy…. What do you assume those reasons are?
Like most things Lawrence, I believe it is internal. The problem with most western analysis is that is begins with the assumption everything is about us. It isn’t. Hamas are a Palestinian group playing to a Palestinian / Arab / Muslim audience. What Europe / US think isn’t at the top of their list of priorities. You don’t consider your external enemies first, you consider your supporters, funders and internal critics. Hamas (like Hezbollah) are challenged by the perception that others pay the price for their folly. Hamas I would imagine needed to correct the image of innocent slaughter BECAUSE IT DAMAGES HAMAS. They needed to show that they are the ones who pay the price, or at least pay a heavy part of it. They are fighting many internal battles and there is real criticism on the street. My guess (an educated guess, but a guess nevertheless) is that this was to offset that criticism.
I am sure David is pretty much right here. The 50 out of 62 is palpable Hamas bullshit.
Wonder if anyone can spot Simon Cobbs twin brother.
What is funny though is how the Israelists have suddenly adopted Hamas as the font of all truth. Personally I wouldn’t trust Hamas or the IOF further than I could throw Eric Pickles.
Hamass CELEBRATE the deaths of their slavish drones?
That’s what makes Pal-e-STINIANISM a Death Cult.
You’ll also find a plaque too boruch Goldstein in Kirsty arba. It’s a sweeping generalisation to say that makes all settlers death cultists. They want what you want – and therein lies the probleproblemm.
Oh, I see. So everything is equal. Everybody just wants the same thing. Except they don’t.
Jerusalem Post – “Bardaweil did not specify what role the people who he said were Hamas members had in the organization or whether any of them belonged to its armed wing, the Izzadin Kassam Brigades.”
David describes them variously as ‘Hamas operatives’…. “Hamas members’ … ‘terrorists’. See what David did there, he twisted the words.
Hamas is the power in Gaza. Hamas also runs schools, hospitals etc. in the enclave. Its has a military wing(as does Israel), the Izzadin Kassam Brigades.
I agree that Bardaweil’s words give the Colliers of this world something to seize on. Perhaps they’re true, perhaps not. What he is NOT saying is that the 50 were ‘terrorists’. It should be understood that shooting them while NOT presenting a direct threat is also murder.
There is also the not inconsequential matter of the other 2000 shot
Stephen, the 2000 injured were not necessarily shot. Most were injured due to smoke inhalation caused by the burning tires etc.
Davy, terrorists that are trying to cross the border into Israel are a threat, no matter what. Hamas have openly said that their mission is to cross the border and kill / kidnap Israelis. Those shot were those that were approaching the border, trying to blow it up or force it open.
Really wish people would look into the facts before trying to prove their righteousness on how Israel could have done better. This is not Israel’s fault. Hamas, a jihadi terrorist organisation is trying to breach another sovereign country’s borders!!!
“terrorists that are trying to cross the border into Israel”? You know that this was really a demonstration. No-one left their own land. There was never any chance of harm to the snipers or to Israeli citizens. The shooting of folk ‘approaching the border’ is a crime. Israel wrongly thinks that it can dictate that anyone within 300 metres is a target. These ARE the facts … no lies please.
More true than not, but some of the people shot that day were armed with grenades, a handgun and molotov cocktails, which they were throwing at an IDF vehicle. These individuals were therefore lawfully killed. This description does not seem to apply to most of the dead.
Hamass spokesman admitted that 50+ were Hamass fighters.
No, he said 50 (not 50+) were Hamas.
10 were trained terrorists. The rest were political affiliates. Very few of them appeared to be armed when killed.
Membership of Hamas is not a capital offence under Israeli law, and in fact that is not why the state of Israel says it killed these men. It says it killed them to stop them crossing the border
“You see Ian I am not fussed about Israel……I couldn’t give a flying fuck”
Stephen Bellamy 15/5/2018 on the Banksy thread.
Readers may wish to copy and paste this as the default response to future posts from this contributor.
Ah yes Ian but this Gaza business has ramifications for stuff I do give a flying fuck about. But you, not having the remotest fucking clue what is going on…….
Ah yes; The threats to your “hard won civil liberties” Just how hard did you have to fight to win them Bellers?
Well you know that is a stupid question Ian and any answer to a stupid question will likely be a stupid one. That said they do say use it or lose it.
Ask Anthony Loewenstein. Right Scoffie ?
No, I asked Sidney Applebaum and he said you were definitely not part of it. Good animal story though.
Gaza’s thriving economy (via Al jazeera, not a “Zionist” site so you can’t claim bias or disbelief):
I understand the Gazan undertakers have been given a boost recently, inept … wonderful for the enclave then?
Gaza celebrates the “martyrdom” of their slaves with celebrations.
Pal-e-STINIANISM is a Death Cult.
The fewer terrorists in the enclave the better. So yes, 50 dead terrorists make life a whole lot better for the regular civilians.
… who of course won’t be targetted by the IDF tanks and Fighter planes in the next invasion … yeah, right.
Hamas use the same logic vis a vis bombs in pizza shops. It’s disgusting. Civilians, being individuals who are not engaged in armed conflict, even if they are politically affiliated to terrorists, should not be killed, full stop. If you are armed with a kitchen knife and a bolt cutter, and are several thousand meters from the nearest civillian, the appropriate course of action is highly unlikely to be a bullet.
Hamass, Hezbola, Al Qada, ISIS, Taliban, Boko Haram, Muslim Brotherhood, Al Nusra, Al Shabab, Assad are all terrorists.
Whenever one goes through airport checkpoints, thank Islamofascist terrorism like that of 9/11, Pan Am 103.
This is an ingenious post which I imagine is conceived as an obvious juxtaposition to the preposterous tones of other contributors, although I suspect that the intent is the same.The style is not unique but will probably illicit the desired response. I won’t bother to engage. It seems redundant with an anonymous construct.
As I am also an anonymous construct, I will engage and respond to a few of your comments. Apologies for the mix and match.
You wrote that “very few of them appeared to be armed when killed”. Can you sustantiate that statement? Also, your characterisation of civilians armed with bolt cutters and kitchen knives if misleading. I agree that possession of those things should not make someone a legitimate target but let’s not pretend that this abrogates the carrier of such items entirely from blame. If nothing else it suggests mens rea.
Given the above, if the fence was breached, the volume of protestors including Hamas armed personnel, political affiliates armed with knives as well as unarmed protesters (whose intent was unknown) would have presented an imminent threat to both Israeli soldiers and civilians. This would presumably have led to significantly more casualties, no?
Nonetheless, I am with you that 62 people dead gives us much pause for thought and that civilians are not legitimate targets. Can you would suggest a viable alternative means of disbursing or containing a crowd of some 40000 people, who included both violent protesters as well as heavily armed, lightly armed and unarmed demonstrators?
Hi Peach. I suspect we agree on most things. The military spokesman identified three occasions on which troops came under fire. O me was a well publicised confrontation between Maglan troops in a jeep and a Hamas squad armed with a handgun, hand grenades and petrol bombs (and burning tyres). We know this because the army entirely lawfully killed or captured all 7 members of the group and put the weapons on display. The other two occasions involved sniper fire from a distance, one of which ended with 3 dead Islamic Jihadists, and the other ended with no discernable casualties.That leaves around 50 deceased who did not die during armed combat.
40,000 is not a big crowd to police but the close proximity and presence of armed terrorists make it far more difficult than, say, even Charlottesville. With the benefit of hindsight we can clearly say that not enough soldiers were deployed; that systems like LORAD could have been very useful in preventing deaths; that mobile backup units primarily deploying CS gas has from 100+ metres would have been the safest way to force the rioters back; that breaches in the fence did occur and were easily contained without becoming mass infiltration of hundreds of people. The young men who crossed ran around aimlessly, shouting allahu akbar and posing with kitchen knives, then ran away as IDF forced responded. Israel could easily have mobilised 10,000 police and army to hold a flexible defence rather than a sparsely manned linear defence using rifle fire for riot control work.
you’re wrong. You are considering this as you would a public demonstration in Manchester against rising student fees. Instead it is part of an ongoing battle between Hamas and Israel. There are a million different considerations here. One of which, the deployment of large police and army to hold a flexible defence would be self harming and potentially lead to far higher level of casualties. If Israel allowed for visible contact (a meeting of rioters and police) to fill Gazan TV screens, it would have acted as a recruitment video for another 40,000 to arrive at the border. You treat this as if it is played out for a European audience. It isn’t.
There are not two sets of human rights – one for Europeans and one for Arabs. This was a violent, disorderly riots – worse than Charlottsville (and firearm were openly carried, discharged and a murder took place in Charlottsville). Most riots are of course violent and disorderly, but this took place in a warzone. I fully appreciate that it is an extremely challenging, complicated environment. It is not, however entirely unprecedented. The Israelis had a massive strategic benefit which Charlottsville police did not have – fortifications. The Israelis literally shaped the battlefield, using babrbed wire, fences and earthworks to slow down and limiting the scope of possible incursions to small groups of 10-20 rioters.
I completely agree with you that face to face confrontations between rioters and security forces would have been unacceptably risky. As well as the risk of various kitchen implements on clear display, there were molotv cocktails aplenty. Gunmen and suicide bombers could have hidden into the crowds, then rushed out to engage security forces.
Instead, if the small groups of 10 to 20 youths who crawled to the fence and cut their way through would have been left until a sufficient company sized concentration from a highly mobile reserve would have been using stand off weapons – IDF standard 40mm M657 CS gas grenades (effective from 250 metres from a standard M203 launcher) and baton rounds (effective from 75 metres) for the diehards. As long as a 30 meter gap between IDF forces and rioters not equipped with firearms was maintained there was no threat to human life warranting the use of lethal force.
As it was the deployments of troops to the border was highly vulnerable. Hamas have Kornet ATGM missiles with a devastating anti personnel effect which are accurate to within a few centimeters, and, though considerably less accurate, 120mm mortars with a large lethal zone which accounted for most of the casualties in the 2014 unpleasantness and which would have reached over the earthern banks. There were plentiful buildings within 1,000 metres from the border in which Hamas could have (and did) surreptitiously deploy snipers. The IDF sniper teams, outlined by black canvas against the red earth, were painfully exposed. That force deployment was a risk which I consider reasonable in the circumstances, However, some vehicles drove up to the fence itself, meters away from rioters, in a way I consider posed an unacceptable risk to human life on both sides.
A mobile reserve in vehicles, deployed a few hundred meters behind the line, and protected by the reverse slope of the earthworks from observation, would not have been under anything like this threat. And when they deployed, they would have used their mobility and numbers to protect themselves.
When 50 rioters who were not armed with explosives or firearms die during violent riots , it is a rather maximalist position to say that every single one of those deaths was justifiable. A considered response is to ask for an independent investigation. Given the IDF’s sorry recent history in this area (for example – threatening the guy who filmed Elor Azaria executing a disarmed terrorist; concluding that a border policeman both loaded a live round instead of a blank, and failed to insert the correct baton round extension to his gun barrel by accident rather than in an act of premeditation) I don’t believe the IDF can carry out this investigation. I believe a country like South Korea or Japan should be asked to investigate. That won’t happen, which is why I’m sounding off here – there must be accountability.
okay, I am trying to assess the way you create your arguments. You place a framework of real knowledge and a little poppycock atop rather shaky assumptions. It sounds authoritative and it is the way Ben White operates. People end up focusing on the irrelevant detail rather than the false conclusions you make. Unless you are in the possession of the information that was available to the IDF you cannot know half of what you claim would or would not have been the result of any activity. Once this is done, you conclude with extreme moral certainty over things you can have no certainty about (’50 rioters who were not armed’ – for example – You don’t know how many of the 50 were not armed).
The underlying mistake however is the persistence in setting this aside from the conflict as a domestic riot that just happened to take place in a war zone. That is not what this was. It is part of a far larger struggle and an attempt by Hamas to maintain legitimacy in what is a deteriorating environment for them. Hamas needs wins, Israel cannot let them have any. A Hamas win at this point is not dead civilians, but dead Israelis, which is why we saw a quick claim that 50 Hamas operatives fell. It was an internal message that Hamas rather than ‘Gaza’ pay the ultimate price. It is a sign Hamas is under intense pressure and criticism. So no, I reject entirely the base of your assumption, which means I am hardly likely to agree with your conclusions. When you begin to take into account the wider conflict, the struggle against Hamas, why Hamas wanted this protest and how they intended to use it, and Israeli considerations about how best NOT TO TURN THIS INTO A BLOODBATH, I might start to listen to you, as it is, although I am willing to accept criticism over Israeli strategy, I see no signs that you are reasonable enough to provide them.
I’ve got no knowledge at all of who Ben White is or how he operates.
The side which made this debate all about the details was the Dover Tzahal, who announced on twitter that every shot was counted. A ToI blogger stated (and I find it credible) that a spreadsheet exists for every shot. Mark Regev talks of surgical shots fired when needed. To be fair, the tweet in question was deleted by the IDF spokeperson, but, rather like the obviously hyperbolic claim to be “the most moral army in the world” it invites exploration.
There are two main factors leading to a strong conclusion that 50+ of the rioters were unarmed. The first is that the IDF announced three occasions during which they came under fire. They have every incentive to maximally publicise the threat they faced. This tweet refers to 8 individuals in the Hamas cell
This implies that three people were killed in that incident
This images shows weaponry including a handgun and a pipe bomb captured in that incident
This references two further locations which faced shooting attacks (perhaps a single attack from two locations) which don’t appear to have been face to face encounters, but instead appear to have been resolved by airpower.
This appears to be the strike in question
You can also see in Hamas’ own propoaganda – no firearms or explosives on show. Rocks from well organised, determined and fanatical – but unarmed – Hamas members.
The scale of attacks on IDF forces reported by the IDF doesn’t compute to 62 dead people. I don’t know if it was precisely 50 people who were killed while not posing a lethal threat – but, as you say, that’s an irrelevant detail. We can say that on the balance of probabilities 50 people who were not posing a threat to life were killed.
None of this should surprise you. The IDF has been crystal clear – they will shoot people dead for illegally crossing a fence regardless of whether they posed a threat They sent this message to the people of Gaza by leaflet. I don’t support the right of Gazans to illegally cross the fence, but I certainly don’t believe it merits death.
You are indubitably correct to blame Hamas for making this a game of chicken bloodfest. I made the point earlier that two wrongs don’t make a right. Hamas was callous with Gazans lives. However, the IDF still had options and choices available to it. Hamas’ guilt does not per se absolve the IDF’s – you have to prove that the IDF’s actions were proportionate and legal.
But as you are so concerned with precision and truth David – will you support an independent investigation? Of course note. This is the best you are going to get.
I think anything with more than two links is automatically put into a moderating queue.
A couple of problems. You are counting the times the IDF advertised the violent conflict, but an absence of official notification does not mean that is all there was. As you seem so clued up on conflict strategy I am sure you must be aware of potential situations where the IDF may have encountered armed hostile elements and not advertised it. Also that someone was not actively engaged in shooting at an IDF soldier does not mean he does not pose a threat to life. You don’t wait to see who he is going to kill before you shoot someone with explosives. As all this could take place beyond the fence, the IDF would not possess the evidence and the Hamas would not offer it up.
Given we are aware now of at least 53 members of terrorists organisations amongst the 59-62 dead, I am less concerned with the fatalities as I am with the level of injuries. I am as you are, interested in knowing how many were actually shot and what they were doing when it occurred. Given the accuracy of the fatalities (53/59-62) the numbers being quoted by Hamas seem ridiculous. So these questions are fair enough. I am sure when the IDF conducts its own investigations, which it always does, we will find out more.
I have no interest in ‘international’ anything. There should be no element of Israeli sovereignty handed over to anyone who thinks the UNHRC is a viable body to talk on human rights issues. When the world strips itself of its own diplomatic hypocrisy, come back and ask me again.
There is no reason at all for the IDF to suppress reports of armed attacks on its own troops. That’s why it didn’t supress such reports, but reported them on its twitter feed. We’re getting slightly into “crisis actor” level of conspiratorialism here.
I share you scepticism regarding the UN’s impartiality. I consider them biased against Israel. I would suggest a (for example) a Swiss, Japanese, South Korean or Indian led investigation.
The IDF’s investigations are thoroughly unprofessional exercises in witness intimidation. I do not trust them to investigate themselves given the shameful history of self exculpations (the border guard who “accidentally” loaded live ammunition and also “accidentally” forgot to use the correct baton round barrel extension is a recent example). When the country is corrupt from prime minister downwards, the dignity of human life demands an impartial and credible investigation.
Being a Hamas member is not a capital crime under Israeli law. You cannot kill someone in combat by reference to their political allegiances, however reprehensible and disgusting they may be. The only justifiable reason is that they engaged in armed conflict. A stone can be a lethal weapon, but Israel should and did deploy their forces at sufficient ranges to avoid stones in most circumstances.
For the reasons I have given I consider that around 50+ of the dead were unarmed and, that being unarmed, and several thousand meters from the nearest civillian, it is unfathomable to see why lethal force was required in these circumstances. Instead, I find – based on the IDF’s own words – that these individuals were killed for crossing the border illegally.
No we are not getting conspiratorial, we are just exposing your shallow or perhaps slanted understanding of the way military confrontation works. Everything that the IDF releases it does so for its own benefit. It isn’t an impartial reporter. There are many potential reasons why the IDF would not advertise a strike against it if in doing so it gave information to the Hamas it did not want the Hamas to have. I can think of several without trying.
It isn’t just that the UN or UNHRC are biased against Israel, it is that global diplomacy refuses to accept it as fact. For as long as UNHRC resolutions are quoted, the global diplomatic stage is irretrievably tainted. Every nation has its own diplomatic pressures. As I said, in a different world, I might not disagree with the suggestion, providing a similar body operated ALSO against US, UK, Soviet and Chinese activity. Until then what you are suggesting is as biased against Israel as the UN is.
As for the unarmed. Nobody is suggesting that a filing clerk in Hamas HQ is a viable target. So it is not about membership of Hamas. There is little the Israelis do not know about Hamas and if one of Israels ‘most wanted’ has blood on his hands and crossed a snipers sight, I am personally fine with him pulling the trigger. I don’t PERSONALLY need for him to have been posing an immediate danger at the time. I think any western military would operate the same way given that going in and capturing him is not an option. Israel v Hamas is a war.
You say there are numerous reasons for the IDF to suppress reports of attacks on its own troops. Name one.
The targeted assassination angle is a red herring. The IDF have the capability, for example to hit senior leadership. They don’t; because a hudnah or truce is in place. Open warfare is expensive and exhausting for the South. These individuals were young junior cannon fodder; certainly not big fish. Hamas do not have a manpower problem and the IDF cannot shoot their way to victory. It’s not plausible to suggest that these men were not killed for doing what the IDF said they would be killed for: Crossing or attempting to cross the fence.
Really? You cannot think of any reason why the IDF might not want to openly discuss an action it engaged in? Maybe discussing it would reveal information they had about something they were not meant to know about. Maybe they wanted to leave Hamas scratching their heads over how one or two operatives died. Maybe they had a few soldiers the other side of the fence. Maybe disclosing it would reveal that information had been given to them by informants over there and so on and so on. Maybe they’ve ‘reverse tunnels’ and don’t want anyone to know. Its a war. There’s lots of covert crap going on and it is somewhat silly to suggest the IDF are being completely open about everything just to make life easy for you.
Of course the IDF have capability to hit the big fish and of course there are some understandings. None of this is relevant. The false implication is that because it cannot be a big fish, then it has to be filing clerk. These are assumptions your are making, leaps you are taking, and conclusions you are reaching without actually having the information you would need to have at hand to draw them. It seems you are drawing pictures to suit your own position rather than sitting back and saying ‘actually, I don’t know’. Of course it is plausible they were killed for something other than just crossing the fence. Maybe the IDF policy was a shot to the legs for those trying to cross the border and they saved the shot to the head for people who registered via their facial recognition software. Truth is you haven’t got a clue and neither have I. The difference is that I am not pretending I have the whole thing sewn up with comments about ‘plausibility’.
It is like I described at the beginning. Your knowledge seems superficial and it is designed to sound authoritative, but in reality the actual foundations of all of your assumptions are based on what you think, not what you know. And as that comes across as having found Israel guilty without evidence. I am not sure what point you are trying to get across.
Most (not all) of the people here who support Israel, favour the idea of a two state solution (a real one, not one based on empty promises), see the Palestinians as real people, understand it is all complex and would bite the hand of anyone who offered serious peace. Most of the people here who attack Israel, think it is a demon state, run by demons and Nazis, they throw anti-Jewish tropes out by the handful and imply there is a lot of Jewish conspiracy stuff going on. For them Israel is full of white Europeans who run an Apartheid system against non-whites. They also suggest anyone who identifies with Zionists deserve to face a trial in the Hague.
You have chosen to spend all your time arguing with the moderate pro-Israelis rather than the extreme anti-Zionists. As someone who seems to be playing a middle of the road moderate, is there a reason all your fire only goes in one direction?
Here’s the truth. We have the videos. There is plenty of open source information. Facial recognition technology used by the met police doesn’t work. The IDF don’t kill anyone big or small during a hudnah. They tolerate Hamas posts and cooperate with Hamad customs officials. If Hamas operatives conducted offensive operations then that fact is known to them
You keep ignoring the leaflets. They said crossing the fence would risk death.
There won’t be an investigation. Like MH370 silence and professions of mute dumbness are clearly partisan.
And after all that, you are pushed back into a corner where you resort to saying ‘we have the videos – this is the truth’. As if several snippets of carefully selected or distorted material can tell you the ‘truth’. You’ve left behind the point about why the IDF might not tell everyone everything because it didn’t work out so well for you, and for some reason you’re now comparing Met police technology with that of the IDF. The Hudna point is unsupportable nonsense and something that you clearly do not understand. It’s like you picked up a word someone mis-used to describe understandings between Israel and Hamas and have taken it to mean something it certainly doesn’t. All the more absurd seeing there are 50 Hamasniks lying dead after several tried to breach a border to kill Israelis. And it all started so impressively. Enough. Thanks, Shabbat shalom and chag sameach.
Its awfully funny how the Hasbara trolls are all coming out with the same meme, almost verbatim _ I particularly like the fact that allegedly every person killed by the IFD actions on the Gaza ‘No Go Zone’ are all associated with Hamas, which means our IFD chums must have brilliant eyesight, not withstanding the fact the Israeli’s sponsored the creation of Hamas itself, so no doubt have the membership cards of all members, or non-members.
What’s even more striking is that in the UK an active dialogue is going on about the failure of digital facial recognition systems our numerous Police forces deploy, with failure rates above 95% not being uncommon – so, memory retention and eyesight must be superhuman with the IDF sniper brigade – which still does not account for the fact why so many unarmed protestors have had limbs shot off by high velocity rifles ejecting projectiles that are proscribed international, such as dumb dumb and butterfly bullets – obviously, and with tear gas being dispersed our brave IDF murders were able to track all targets with their superhuman powers.
Again, the excuses, which are multiple, fail to address UN condemnation & concerns, never mind the devastating, life changing injuries that Israel inflicts as a matter of due process, and then prevents all medical supplies necessary to treat their victims being sent to where they are required.
I’ll not even mention medics and paramedics being tagged by the IDF snipers, which is now well documented – alas, the Israeli apologists will make their excuses. Alas, most sane and unbiased persons just ain’t buying it.
Hopefully Galber will now give a 100,000 word stream of bollocks, whilst expressing zero concern whatsoever at the number of those under 18 years of age murdered and maimed, among them an infant of 8 months. Great stuff guys, truly great stuff.
Where do you get that the IDF is using proscribed weaponary – or are you just letting your Jew hate run away with you.
Infant of 8 months old killed – Gaza medical doctor says baby had pre-existing condition
Where is documented and verified proof of medics being targeted – or is this just one more manifestation of your Jew hated hits
Your hate filled diatribes against Jews protecting their homes would not be out of place in the pages of the Jew hating press of both the Soviet and Fascist regimes of years past.
If morons – egged on by white Jew hating ‘lefty liberal neo-fascists’ from Europe – attempt to charge armed soldiers defending their families, and those morons get killed, blame them and their masters for their stupidity
Is that long enough for our dear ‘progressive racist bigot’ troll.
If not there is one a little further down to tickle your hate sensory glands
“Where is documented and verified proof of medics being targeted – or is this just one more manifestation of your Jew hated hits”
You don’t love your country by stuffing your fingers in your ears and shouting “I CAN’T HEAR YOU”
Someone rails against Israel after it shot dead 60 protestors and YOU term it ‘hate’.
How much more ‘hate’ must be felt to aim at unarmed folk across a fence on their own land and shoot them dead?
You are the product of a vile mindset.
Oh please, go take your conspiracy theories to bed.
BTW, to you,”someone” and the other Israel hating schmucks. 170 Arabs were killed in Syria the first 3 days of this week. How many were shot or injured? No one knows and no one gives a crap, because they weren’t shot by Jews while you obsess about Jews as you have always done. This is your legacy.
Again, for Israel, Jeff reads Jews. A neurotic.
A psychotic calling others neurotic.
That’s Dumb Davy in a nutshell.
Chris, I honestly believe that there will come a time when you will re-read some of the things you write and question yourself. Try it now. Just look at the way that you’ve articulated your points and you’ll see what I’m saying. I respect the fact that you write in your own name rather than hide behind the curtain of timid anonymity. This is brave considering the way that you present your subject matter. But seriously, do not share this stuff with anyone outside this specific readership group and certainly not with friends and family with whom your reputation matters.
Nothing in Chris’s posf thaf he needs be ashamdd of. He obviously has a firm grasp of thd issues involved and a care for the victims. Contrast that with David’s deceitful twisting of words and reality, and with the constant racist goading by constant reference to a dark time for those who were driven by Jewish terrorism from their land.
it is to the credit of the more human of the posters that they themselves do not goad by reference to the dark days for Jews, Roma and many other groups.
…. ‘and with the constant racist goading by David’s pet Edward’
Which race is being goaded?
The Socialist race?
The Fascist race?
The Terrorist race?
The Laboor Party race?
The Jihadi race?
I’m happy to share my views with any international audience, I’m happy to condemn the mass murder of innocent folks rightfully struggling to be allowed some level of dignity and the ability to return to the homes they had after WWII ended in August 1945. I’m happy to callout those who continually express uncritical support for Israel, be they Jews or non-Jews, as racists, supporters of ethnic cleansing and genocide supporters.
I trust that answers your question, and if you think being an anti-warmonger and person of humble, human decency, who care’s about the plight of others under repressive regimes globally make me an anti-semite, well excellent, for if the epitaph is applied to me by the repugnant likes of Saul Freeman, then I wear it as a medal of honour based on the fact I’ve never attacked Jewish folks for being Jewish, never expressed hate to Jewish folks for being Jewish and never undermined or attacked the Biblical foundations of Judaism, which underscores much of both Jewish opinion and Christian opinion globally.
Anyhow, here’s Jimmy Dore putting things into perspective and congratulating The Onion for shouting it out as it really is in Gaza presently: https://youtu.be/Nfx-nEQ6bbo
Many years ago the ‘lefty liberal neo-fascists’ had their focus on South Africa.
Today they try to compare Israel to apartheid South Aftica
Then South Africa had race laws that were based on the Antisemetic Jew Hate Nuremburg Laws in Nazi Germany from the period 1935-7. These laws decreed where people lived, what work they did and where, what buses they used, who they had sex with, what public toilets they used according to race and colour; every thing a person did was decided by colour with legislation and the full backing of the law
Israel does not have any racist laws
The wonderful Jew hating social justice warriors (SJW) of today battle to link the racist law regime of South Africa with Israel.
The only comparison that actually stands is the methods the SJW employ to denigrate and demonise Israel
At one point South Africa was in TV news on a rolling basis – day and night – and the situation was deteriorating for everyone; so the powers that were brought in drastic control regulations, including
preventing TV crews (but allowing journalists) open access to points of conflict.
I have always maintained that TV exacerbates problems by showing people only what they want, as opposed to the facts, and violent rioting is definately what the viewing public wants to see.
Thus on a news broadcast, each item gets between 30 seconds to a minute unless the imagery and story line are exciting, in which case they can run into entire segments and dominate the news.
Unscrupulous journalists can thus create news by staging a small event in a single place, and because it is exciting , will dominate the news giving the bimpression of much more happeninhg than is actually the case.
The SA government,. by banning TV journalists allowed the situation to calm down and eventually led to talks between Mandela and de Klerk that led to peace
I believe TV cameras in riot/protest situations should be stopped by Israel.
It would not necessarily lead to peace, but it would most definatly lower the temperature on the street because print journalism requires effort and time whereas TV imagery is instant; and what is seen is accepted less critically than print
So a suggestion from Richard that Israel adopt the South African model of news suppression. We wouldn’t have seen Azaria murdering the incapacitated attacker though …. oh wait … now I see why ….
With smoke billowing towards Israeli soldiers visibility is seriously affected – or have you never experienced bush and plastic/rubber fires
Expert marksmen on shooting ranges don’t always get their shots where they want for a number of reasons – wind & weather, physical position, material fatigue, material failure and inconsistent quality especially of ammunition [I used to do target shooting with a variety of weapons on different shooting ranges in different weather conditions]
So a variety of different physical reasons coupled with the general mayhem and confusion on the field of combat affect many things including inadvertant injury and death, though I doubt that in your perfect utopia accidents can and/or do happen
Shouldn’t well dug-in, well protectively-clad soldiers take more care when firing lethal rounds than someone imagining Arabs while at a firing rage?
Field of combat? But it never was. They stayed on their own side of the fence.
Right but some of the shots were clearly aimed at inappropriate targets. Perhaps the paramedic who died after a shot to the chest was accidental; the Canadian doctor next to him shot in the legs was clearly intentional and a war crime.
You have gone too far, here.
What happened to innocent until proven guilty? The paramedic, whose death you deemed incidental, has been shown to be a Hamas captain, who looks from his pictures more military than civilian. How do we know that he was he indeed a paramedic? What evidence do we have (other than link that you provided) of what either were doing at the time of the incidents? Given the lack of clarity, on what basis do you conclude that his death was accidental any more than that the doctor’s shooting was a war crime? Have the details of these incidents been released by Israel? On the face of it, neither doctors nor paramedics should be but unless you have clear evidence that proves what you are saying, you are not placed to make these judgments.
Your predetermination of the events as a war crime is reckless and wrongful at this stage.
I did warn you…
Your list of questions reads like tilting at windmills. If it looks like a paramedic, acts like a paramedic, and is vouched for by a Canadian doctor as a paramedic – it’s a paramedic. Same with the doctor, whose identity was vouched for by a Canadian newspaper and a Canadian Prime Minister. I’m perfectly comfortable beyond all reasonable doubt that my narrative is correct.
It’s not really suprising that IDF soldiers make mistakes. What is suprising is the culture of partisan cover up and lack of accountability that allows these mistakes to keep on happening, and become ever more serious in nature. Your comment exemplifies this type of thinking. You are not keeping Israel safe by pretending there is nothing to see here.
Consider the substance and voice of the posts of the contributor to which you are engaged.
1. Purported knowledge of IDF units, arms, protocols, rules of engagement.
2. Presentation of posts to a diasporan audience from behind a veil of anonymity
3. Statements presented as facts without attribution but with enough pepper to spice the post with an inference of credibility.
4. A veneer of reasonableness to hook engagement that is entirely superficial.
5. And then a remark like this….
“Hamas use the same logic vis a vis bombs in pizza shops. It’s disgusting. Civilians, being individuals who are not engaged in armed conflict, even if they are politically affiliated to terrorists, should not be killed, full stop”
A neat sidestep to push an equivalence between Hamas killing restaurant diners and the IDF killing violent and armed protesters who approach a militarized border with malice aforethought.
I think that you may find that your chat-mate is a little more Dean Issacharoff than Matan Katzman.
Rather than a cover up, I am suggesting that we need more information. The intention of my comment was not to push this into the long grass but to require due process; to understand the facts rather than issue a condemnation based off limited information.
You seem to be well informed on events from Monday and I believe that you would have provided evidence I asked about if it was available. That it is not forthcoming suggests a number of things. It could be that Israel is withholding it, it could be that evidence that confirms one way or another does not exist, but let’s say that it has not be collected/collated yet. As we do not know which one of these is the case, surely the prudent course of action is the correct one.
After all, Hamas is conducting a public international PR war as part of its territorial and other aspirations. Yet you have opted to accept a prima facie account, justified by it looking like a duck. What you seem to be suggesting is that because Justin Trudeau vouched for the doctor, we can rely on his version of events and attribute guilt based off it. What I am saying is that whilst Justin Trudeu may have vouched for the doctor’s identity, did he also vouch for the doctor’s bona fides, intentions or agenda? Moreover, this person may well have been a paramedic and known to the doctor. But he may have also been a fighter &/or a paramedic, that fact being known or unknown to the doctor. Nonetheless, there is sufficient information for you to condemn Israel for war crimes.
I would rather make judgment made in the cold light of day than in the heat of the moment.
The doctor works in a hospital in Canada. He’s well known to his colleagues. I’d love to have a proper investigation, but there won’t be one thanks to the US veto (a veto I agree with given that the UN is biased against Israel).
I’m happy to judge the Quds force for firing 20 rockets into the occupied Golan, and for sending an armed stealth drone towards Dimona. I’m consistently happy to judge the IDF based on similar levels of information.
“The doctor works in a hospital in Canada. He’s well known to his colleagues” – all of which means fuck all.
Ian, I think that you are probably right.
Facts are facts, even if you don’t like them. I don’t draw a moral equivalence between Hamas and the IDF, but I do draw a moral equivalence between unarmed ideological Hamas supporters and you.
Oh, btw: –
1. I do have some knowledge of IDF units, arms and protocols, though I have never served in the IDF. As for the rules of engagement, the IDF was kind enough to publish their (ostensibly illegal) rules of engagement by air mail to the people of Gaza which states they would kill people for trying to cross a fence.
2. I live in the diaspora, and I guess while I am trying to spread a message, it’s not a message which comes from nowhere. Many disapora Jews feel like me. So do many soldiers in the IDF – serving and retired. So do many Israelis. Do not shoot the messengers.
3. If you think I’m factually mistaken about anything, I’ve asserted put up; or shut up.
4. I’m not going to apologise for being reasonable.
5. See my comment below. I do equate you to an unarmed Hamas supporter insofar as you have labelled non combatant civilians as legitimate targets for reasons no connected to armed conflict – as do Hamas. I don’t think you should be killed for your views, and I don’t think Gazans who support terrorism but do not participate in hostilities should be killed for theirs.
I think Simon Myerson summed it up best. 50 armed to the teeth Hamas terrorists deservedly killed, likewise three Islamic Jihadis and 2647 tragic mistakes.
we have no way of knowing how many people were injured at this point. If you point me to any major Israeli action in the last twenty years I will show you the initial figures and then show you how different the actual figures were when the dust had settled. This means not just that we have precedent, but we have a consistent pattern. Anyone promoting these figures of casualties at the moment has absolutely no logical ground to believe they are honest numbers.
Why was this shot fired?
There are sufficient facts to draw reasonably robust conclusions; you just don’t like them.
I don’t know and neither do you. That’s part of your problem, you think small decontextualised and edited videos are facts.
Here’s the context. David, why was a warning shot fired within a meter of a clearly marked female reporter wearing a PRESS flack jacket.
You know the answer.
The Russians tried to suppress the shootdown of MH370 with philosophical imponderables about the unknowability of essentially anything; the Assadists did this with the various chemical warfare videos; and I suspect you are doing the same. It’s not convincing, it’s intellectually dishonest. It undermines your credibility.
David you need to make up your mind about the degree to which we can trust Hamas figures
“What happened to innocent until proven guilty?”
While Israeli snipers shoot dead innocents without trial.
Blah, blah, blah.
You are a screeching lunatic.
Proscribed weapons and ammunition – proof please – still waiting
Most of the we reports seem to come from the fact that exit wounds are considerably bigger than entry wounds. That’s not actually explosive bullets – all bullets tumble and fragment as well as propagating shock waves as they go through flesh. It is non medical people witnessing the destructive effects of firearms up close. I’m pretty sure Israel isn’t using explosive bullets.
The human toll on Palestinian’s since the last day of March until Tuesday, 15 May is 3,569 victims of live ammunition fire, of which 111 are dead, will a cumulative tally of all injuries, many caused by gas, standing at 12,844.
Would you kindly instruct readers the total tally of all Israeli’s injured or killed by Palestinian’s in the aforementioned timeline, which you have stated represented an existential threat to Israel and its Jewish majority?
Putting this into perspective, the number of those murdered, maimed and injured since 30 March – 15 May is far greater than any corresponding timeline during the struggle against Apartheid in South Africa, or the Black Civil Rights movement in the USA during the 1950s & 60s. By way of example, the Soweto uprising of 1976 by black students according to the Cillie Commission resulted in 575 deaths, of which 451 are attributed to the police and 3,907 injuries, of which 2,389 are attributed to the police.
Well done Galbor, makes you proud to be an ardent Zionist Israeli.
Will you be joining the IDF to add to this great score in the next encounter between Palestinian protesters and the Israeli state?
Chris, this is precisely the sort post that I’ve been mentioning. If you revisit the content you will see that you are entirely focused on amplification rather than substance; back to stick flailing in an empty space if you will. The message gets completely lost in the rage against anyone and with it the control. I think that there are still some reasonable people here that are willing to contribute to a balanced discussion and probably even some, that in normal circumstances would be more sympathetic bedfellows. Unfortunately you have chosen a tactic that is never going to promote this approach, which is a pity. There was a time several threads ago when we nearly had a proper conversation.
Here’s Peter Oborne, a well respected UK Journalist, on the pernicious effect on the Israeli Lobby on the UK body politic – our MSM fear calls from Mark Regev et al, and yet Scoffie Hoffman proclaims all UK media output is anti-semitic when covering Israel – can’t make this crap up I’m afraid: https://youtu.be/lby-BP5xVRI
Chris, I understand the pivot. I assume that this allows you to use your full fagot of sticks. If this is the extent of the bar that you set for posting; non-contextual mentions of all of your key topics of interest, solicited or otherwise I really think that we could find ways to reach a more productive outcome. I am happy to offer you some support with this.
As I’m involved in a few Welsh Politics issues, my time is rather tied up, however, since Monday’s outrage, plenty of material has cropped up to counter Hasbara disinformation, in the meantime, I’m looking forward to a visit to the Coal Exchange in Cardiff meeting with Leftists opposed to corruption in governance in South Wales. Oh, and I’m not following any Royal Wedding crap.
“can’t make this crap up I’m afraid:”
You can, and you do. Your appeal to authority is cheap.
File it under “antisemitic conspiracy theories.”
David, Is this really the kind of blog you were after when you started David-Collier.com. You have the same three or four hateful anti-Zionists (and suspected antisemites) peddling the same discredited nonsense, dismissing verifiable facts, insulting Jews and gaslighting anyone who dares to disagree with their vile and hateful views. Are these antiZionist jerks here simply the online division of the ‘useful idiots’ you refer to in your article – spouting a carefully crafted, dishonest and distorted version of reality, manufactured by Hamas, and their friends in the media. I am astonished that you still allow your blog to be hijacked in this way. Hamas throw a stone and these antizionists here throw it again!
I deal in facts even if they hurt feelings. The IDF is neither perfectly moral or immoral
It is amoral like all armies. Ok here is another down your way to please Ian.
My daughter is forever telling me how hunting animals for sport is immoral. I say well we used to bait bears in pits, cock and dog fighting was legal and respectable , we used to to have public hangings, we used to hang draw and quarter people, and so on. We don’t do that stuff any more. Is this because we have gotten to be more moral ? Good luck arguing that one.
Rather what there has been is what you might call an ” evolution in sensibilities” . Folks that want to run down foxes with dogs and have them torn apart have retarded sensibilities.
And I think this is kinda like how it is with Israel if you want to macro it to ” nations”. Israel hasn’t kept up with the evolving sensibilities of what you might call the liberal civilised world ( not that I am a fan of such ). So this is how it can feel that the recent massacres on the Gaza border is ok. And this is why it it will be destroyed by the weight of its intrinsic contradictions and by its retarded sensibilities.
Here endeth the lesson.
The USA was torturing prisoners only 10 years ago. UK sergeant Blackman did an Azaria in Afghanistan. UK soldiers drowned and tortured prisoners in 2004. It’s human nature and the nature of warfare – we strive for better – but this Israeli exceptionalism is not coming from a good place on right or left
Auditioning for Pseuds Corner ?
I think David Hirsh has that corner all filled uo
But anyway since I have Harv’s attention ( as if I didn’t always ) I will enlighten him further. It is this growing discrepancy between the sensibilities of the PEOPLE of Israel and the PEOPLE of the “west”
that will do for Israel as a Jewish majority state.
@ David Hirsh Shuffle over a bit David.
No you don’t. You’re an anti-Israel troll who doesn’t realize, stupid moniker and all, how much of yourself you are revealing about yourself.
It is David that crafts dishonest versions of reality, Norm. Corbyn is an antisemite. The mural was antisemitic ….. All untrue obviously. But it’s designed to be his echo chamber.
I have written 10000’s of words on Corbyn, but I cannot ever remember calling him an antisemite. Why do you keep making things up?
You have spent page after page bad-mouthing Jeremy Corbyn and alluding to his encouraging antisemitism. You have stated that Jeremy Corbyn does not care about antisemitism.
Do you think that Jeremy Corbyn is an antisemite?
Do you think that he isn’t antisemitic.
Have the courage to publish your real opinion.
you said I have called him an antisemite. I said that was a lie. As you now seem to be asking me the question, it does seem that you were lying about me again. Why do you do this?
I apologise if wrong. Can we now know whether you think he is an antisemite?
The blog is exactly as I wanted it to be Norm. A place where I get to publish my research and I can continue learning about the false arguments put up by Israel haters. We can learn from those people who post here. The number of ‘haters’ that swarm onto the blog at times is also a sign of how much effect it has had. I have two options. To close the comments or to leave them. I do stop posting rights when someone is visibly just trolling (I kicked out Mike when he said he saw no antisemitism in the Palestine Live report), but I won’t ban someone just because I don’t like what he says. If there is someone who is deliberately just trolling, let me know. If you want an up-side, they increase traffic to the blog itself and their continual comments are seen by search engines as evidence this website has some importance. Which means Chris and his army of idiots help with the search ranking of this website. Which helps spread the message. The blog does its work through the posts, and they help spread that around. That’s not a bad thing.
…. and posters also get to refute the false assertions that you present on your blogs.
I only wish some of what you posted actually tried to refute *anything* I post Davy. Instead you just deflect, lie, create straw men and take other posters down into rabbit holes. All rather boring and tiresome.
Yep, no answering of questions, just labels placed on each one to justify your not replying.
Hamas has stated their aim to destroy Israel and murder the Jews; so yes its an existential threat to Israel whether Jew haters like you [in whatever guise you try to hide your hared] accept or deny it
The rest of your post is such a Rodgers bodge of mixed up statistics and data that they are meaningless
Are losing it old bean; I mean incoherance and bad temper are bad signs
Israel has stated its aim to deny a Palestinian state., akin to seeking to be rid of Israel.
“bodge of mixed up statistics and data that (they) are meaningless” … à la Collier ?
No. a la Davy.
You’re so dumb I can hardly believe it.
Naw, Jeff, you seem to have believed all sorts of spun narratives.
Have you ever been in a combat/conflict situation?
Have you been in the police or army?
There is pandemonium; incessant noise, sudden movement, uncertainty, distraction, ignorance of anything other than the immediate of the here and now, and as in Gaza you have the toxic smoke of burning tyres being blown by the wind into the soldiers eyes and noses as an added bonus.
Decisions are instantaneous as there is never time to verify
I have never seen, or heard, of a battle to stop for ten minutes so commanders can check their info
Sitting in the comfort and safety of wherever you are, and making decisions and analysis of events after the event is easy and cost free; they call this being an armchair general. All very brave etc.
Making decisions in the heat of conflict/battle is little more difficult
Ask Rodgers the bodger about being an armchair general; he is a wizz at it
1) No, never been in combat
2) No, never served in police or army.
3) When you are a sniper emplaced 100m+ from the protestors (as weas generally the case apart from the well publicised jeep incident) you *do* have time for precisely controlled fire. Cf https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olSBiC-kDpA
If you cannot precisely control your fire, don’t use lethal weapons. And if you can control your fire but don’t need to kill, still don’t use lethal weapons.
4) According to a deleted IDF spokersperson tweet every single shot is accounted for. In a spreadsheet apparently http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/i-was-at-the-gaza-border-we-did-all-we-could-to-avoid-killing/
5) Israel’s supporters have indulged in a great deal of armchair generalsmanship of their own explaining how every single one of the 62 needed to die. Outside of a millitary dictatorship, the milllitary need to account for their actions to civillians.
I don’t think anyone is suggesting every bullet hit its intended target. I do believe that if at least 53 out of 59-62 fatalities were operatives of terrorist organisations, then we can at least know this wasn’t just shooting random ‘ducks in a barrel’. I am perfectly willing to accept that innocent people got hurt. I am also perfectly willing to accept that when the IDF looks at its actions, it will learn from mistakes it surely made.
No, the spokesman said that 53 were ‘operatives’ of Hamas. and 3 were from the military wing.
That implies 3 were terrorists, the others were not.
If any of them were presenting a direct threat to the snipers then the snipers were within their rights.
If none of the Hamas operatives OR the 3 members of its military wing were doing so then the soldiers were NOT witin their rights to shoot them.
“then we can at least know this wasn’t just shooting random ‘ducks in a barrel’.” Are you telling us that they were targetted not for their actions but for their Hamas membership, David?
you couldn’t make more mistakes in one post if you tried. You do not know what you are talking about. You make up lies about me, push false information, talk nonsense and think you are being clever trying to trap me with schoolboy questions. I am not going to bother responding to you again.
As they tell schoolboys, David. ‘Leave any questions that you can’t answer’.( or find difficult?)
Well it better get started learning if it it wants to be done by Chanukah. 2000 mistakes is an awful handful
Yeah, moron. Imagine if the IDF had advanced weaponry the amount of damage they would have inflicted on the fluffy tailed bunny rabbits. It’s a good thing they only have rifles, huh?
What? Israel has misplaced the over $3 billion worth of advanced weaponry given freely by America this year alone?
You befuddle the puddle and increase the opacity of the tranclucent info hub
Trying to impress the girlfriend with flowery words, Richard?
Rodgers dips a bodge
You exist in such a narrow info band, utilising only that that will entrench your world view
Go out into the world laddie that you may see and experience a broader view than the narrow parameters of far left/right political bigotry
Richard seems to have morphed into Edward
Dumb Bellamy seems to have morphed into a pile of dog vomit.
Which Edward had produced many times … good boy.
Which you actually are.
You’ve yet to hit your 10,000 word stride of bollocks against this, well, whatever I’m supposed to be, which you struggle with greatly. However, until 10,000 words of bile are finalised by you i refuse to engage. After 10,000 words of vomit from you, I’ll engage as ever.
So you are being reasonable
What is your suggestion for how the IDFshould have handled the situation
No critisisms of the IDF ; just facts within the suggestions
I’ve left detailed comments above but in short 1) use more men to avoid the need for aggressive self defence with lethal weapons and 2) use more tear gas from 250m range and 3) back off from face to face confrontations with 50 meters of Gazans.
How about just blowing the living shit out of Hamas?
Must target and knock off Hamass leadership.
That would be a change from just shooting Gazans.
We see Hoda duck and a puff of dust
Who fired what
Was it a bullet, and if so fired by whom using what weapon
By your reasoning it was a sniper, and therefore they knew who and what they were shoting at
Yet nothing/nobody was hit
So either they are bloody awful shots and missed , or they shot to miss, or or or…….
Could even have been a stone from a slingshot creating an image for the TV voyeurs in their comforble secure homes in the west
1) Who fired what: it certainly wasn’t the Palestinians – the whole riot was a media strategy
2) Was it a bullet: yes. Listen.
3) Fired by whom: Beyond reasonable doubt the Israeli army, who we know were deploying snipers. See 1) above.
4) Nothing / nobody was hit: yes, it was a warning shot to intimidate a journalist.
Rogers da wodge
While discussing corruption and mismanagement in Cardiff, why not try the same exercize about Hamas and the PA and others
Need to know how the Palestinian leadership have in so many cases become multi-millionaires
Spoken to quite a few Hamasniks in London about this, but are scared to talk about this subject because of fear of retribution to themselves and family still in Gaza (not fully up to date as last time we discussed this was about a year and a half ago)
David, there is a possibility that your report has attracted the attentions of an activist from Breaking The Silence. Obviously we cannot be certain as the contributor operates behind the veil of anonymity which in itself is consistent with their approach. It is noteworthy that their appearance here coincided with the admission by the terrorists that 95% of those that were killed were their people.
It doesn’t seem unreasonable to conclude that there is a concerted effort that verges on desperation to keep the focus of attention on allegations of IDF misconduct to the exclusion of any Arab culpability and the sum total of their evidence amounts to an arms list from wiki and a couple of copy/pastes from social media.
The BtS group have been on the back foot since the emergence of My Truth and the power of their attributable and wholly defensible testimony presented by them with transparency by serving officers. I think that you should feel quite satisfied with this outcome.
It’s possible, but I don’t think so. If it were to occur, I have good friends in My Truth that I could ask to lend a hand. This one doesn’t seem like a BtS activist.
” the admission by the terrorists that 95% of those that were killed were their people. ”
Tut tut. The admission(difficult tobelieve) was that 95% were Hamas members(not terrorists, Ian) has now been twisted to have us believe that they were legitimate targets for Israeli snipers. If they were unarmed and not a direct threat they were murdered.
That’s right Davy. They only joined the genocidal Islamo-fascist terror group for the dental plan and a “peaceful protest” against the existence of Jews.
They were armed, Davy, you pathetic sack of excrement.
Anyway it seems David and Scoffies have their heads together planning a vendetta against a certain someone.
But Bellers, Sidney Applebaum has already confirmed that you and the others were not there and he’s not been wrong yet !
More unbridled Narcissism from Dumb Bellamy
Narcissism Edward ? Oh you think I mean me ? Nah Scoffie wouldn’t embark on a vendetta against me. I have way too much on him.
If you want narcissism here is a jaw dropping lot
Wasn’t where ?
He grinds his own axe Bellers and I doubt you’re on that particular radar. Could be wrong of course.
Haven’t got a clue what you are talking about.
Thought you’d say that.
Obviously thinking is your strong pioint
I notice that the so called ‘hive of anti-semitism’, usually known to most right minded persons as the United Nations has launched an enquiry into Monday’s massacre of Palestinian’s legitimately demonstrating their imprisonment in the World’s largest concentration camp.
Seems the best efforts of the Hasbara has failed to stop the UN doing its job.
No doubt the nut jobs posting on this Blog will now being given the usual bile against this organisation and usual anti-semitism tropes to undermine its work.
Chris I know you didn’t believe most of that. Taking a series of essential words and phrases and stitching them together has still got to be contextual in order to be intelligible to the reader. People are more likely to take you and your views at face value in that case. As it stands it looks pretty obvious that its all just flailing in open spaces for effect. If you make real points people are more likely to respond and that may give you a chance to present coherent arguments in a more trustworthy way. You can give it the working title “civilised discussion”.
Not really your view of what activism looks like but it has to be an improvement on this.
A majority of the Jewish population of Israel has spoken in one voice since Monday’s horrific massacre of the innocents – there can be no peace, none whatsoever with those you admire I’m afraid. You’ve made your bed and I’ve made mine – I stand with the Palestine people, rightly fighting against 70 years of ethnic cleansing and horrors bestowed upon they by your beloved Israel – which, ain’t so beloved now Internationally.
cleaning the local beaches up of flotsam is activism, as is fighting for decent Broadband services in the far flung places of where I inhabit – of course, should a Pro-Palestinian event occur in Cardiff when visiting I’m join in, as important to physically express solidarity – not withstanding grabbing a pint of Brains Real Ale – a real treat is that.
Chris Rogers proves once again that he is a pathetic swivel-eyed unhinged moron.
So glad you could turn yourself away from your popcorn munching delight watching the massacre of Palestinian’s live on your 75 inch LCD TV to engage with us here – I’ve been worried that we’ve not witnessed enough blood spilling by them Palestinian’s being corralled by that most moral of armies, the IDF.
I trust you have cogitated over my marriage proposal, which is a most honourable proposal, but must add caveats, namely, our Honeymoon must now be held on a small sailing boat that we can sail across the oceans of blood our IDF heroes have gifted us in Gaza – just think all the blood we can drink to quench our desire for more murders of those who poise an existential threat to our beloved Israel – I mean, them wheelchair bound stone throwers sure put the willies up me, with the frames of these tanks of hate filled with semtex no doubt!
In order to pass our days, I’ve now ordered what I believe to be the perfect Wedding gifts for us both, the M107 Barrett .50 Calibre sniper rifle, which will obliterate the torso of any Palestinian that dare interrupt our celebration of marriage, and Israels success at the Eurovision Hate Contest. Oh, and the Embassy, the Embassy, which is a message from God on high no less.
Please be advised the M107 has a bit of a kick, and can only hold a few .50 calibered butterfly bullets at a time. Alas, if we are careful in lining up the crosshairs of our optics, we can murder & maim a minimum 100 Palestinians at one shot, which is the environmentalist thing to do – bless us. No restraint for us, we’ll just pop away with wine at hand enjoying the bloodfest we ourselves inflict on unarmed protesters who poise an existential threat to our beloved nuclear armed Israel, which has never caused injury or harm to anyone, well except to British soldiers post WWII, Palestinian’s and Arabs across the Middle East and North Africa.
“One of the reasons I won’t be criticising Israel today is because I am in London. I am not facing 40,000 rioters sent by Hamas to the Israeli border.” – or perhaps even better, because there is nothing to criticise?
Chris, I understand your position and appreciate that every attempt to draw you into a more normal conversation; the sort that people have in person, is merely an intro for you to stitch some topical slogans together that are less about projecting ideas but more a de-contextualised stream of consciousness to validate your prejudices. I also appreciate that this is how you have defined activism for optimum outcome. That’s fine. My outcome is a country to live in. Yours is a vast empty space in which to flail your sticks. In a couple of decades, you may choose to review who achieved the most.
“In a couple of decades, you may choose to review who achieved the most.”
I think that right here and now we know just which of the sides achieved the most deaths and sunk the lowest.
Was there a time when you didn’t have a country to live in Ian ?
Why do you ask?
Well you were talking to Chris about outcomes and you said that your outcome was a country to live in, implying there was a time when you didn’t have a country to live in. I was just wondering if that was what you meant to imply.
The inference is entirely yours.
Well the implication seems to be clear. If a country to live in is an outcome is there not a clear inference that prior to this outcome you did not have a country to live in.
Gnasher is nodding his head in solemn agreement . I am am sure if he can grasp the point you could too if you really tried.
Probably best then sticking to your faux feline fixtions than textual interpretation Bellers.
But anyway I am not sure whether you are doubting Gnasher’s existence or suggesting I slightly exaggerate his brilliance ?
I’m proud I’m able to live among people without expressions of hatred and racism, I’m proud my daughter attends a multi-ethnic, multi-faith School where all kids are treated as equal, regardless of class, ethnicity or religious belief – the children really are very well adjusted and don’t have fear or hatred instilled into them – this is the World I aspire too Ian, this is the UK I aspire too, namely, where universalism is applied in its totality, where all are equal and treated as equal – no ifs, no buts i’m afraid.
if only one could say that about Israel Ian, alas, one cannot, which causes me distress, but I’m not Israeli, so its for the Israeli majority, which so happens to be Jewish, to sort out, with some prodding from International actors.
Maybe one day you’ll all see the light, until then, I’ll remain a vocal critic who opposes warmongering and the murder/maiming of innocents.
You appear to have made your life choices Chris as have I. From your remarks they seem to be working out well for you, as have mine for me.
If this was the sort of place where two people from opposing positions had normal exchanges and presented views and challenged opinions in a reasonable way we could talk about the language of the moment; warmongering, massacres and of course genocide, colonial oppression and all of the other soundbite sensationalism that provides you with your sticks. Of course this is not how things work here so these conversations will never happen, which is a pity. As I have said many times you may look back on this period of your life and wonder why you spent this time shouting at a few anonymous strangers on social media and ask what any of it achieved.
Actually move over Cathy this, from David’s love child Simon Cobbs is now the tweet of the year
‘End Zionism’. Many would say that could mean ‘end Jews’ as 90% of Zionists are Jews. @CelticFC will you act?!
Talking about Simon Cobbs, he tried to make love with me on social media, which I was not happy about, particularly when having checked the sock puppet account he was using, all his followers were Tories, Trump supporters or extreme UK Nationalists, namely outright fascists – wonder if he plays in the sand pit with Scoffie’s best friend, Mr Paul Besser or our legal friend from up North, Anthony Dennison?
ANOTHER kooky fantasy from NARCISSIST Crazy Chris.
Crazy Chris, the world does not revolve around you and does not share your love of yourself.
Ha yes, Anthony another of Davids brothers in arms, expert on the history of the conflt and seeker after truth
NWFOI gain their impetus from counter demonstrating outside the Manchester store, Kedem. However, the aims and objectives extend well beyond the fate of Kedem. As they cheerfully admit, the aim is get the Public Order Act “strengthened” to take the sting out of demonstrations against the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian Territories, and to have currently peaceful and legal demonstrations, declared illegal. To this end they encourage, and campaign for, the repeal of the Human Rights Act. In this they have the support of the mainstream Jewish Organisations, particularly the Community Security Trust. Further, to this end they look to provoke and have arrested, pro Palestinian demonstrators
Again there is a fair sprinkling of criminal minds in the organisation, notably the Jewish Chronicle’s favoured spokesperson, Anthony Dennison. Dennison is co chair of NWFOI.
He is an ex solicitor that the High Court ruled should be struck off. He was closely involved in the ” no win, no fee” scam, and, essentialy, was held to have defrauded his own partners in the then law firm, Rowe Cohen. Dennison appealed his striking off, and The Court of Appeal dismissed the appeal, finding that Dennison represented ” a substantial risk to the public”. He certainly does. Not least those pro Palestinian demonstrators he and his comrades manage to get framed.
His fractured character seems to permeate into the most minor details of Dennison’s life .He is the ” manager” of Maccabbi, an under sixteen football team in Manchester. Last year his team were involved in a game they were losing 9-2 with ten minutes to go. At this point there was something of an incident. Two players got involved in a bit of a fracas, common in football games. However, there seems to have been an exchange of racist epithets. Dennison seized the opportunity to haul his team off the pitch, representing the spat between two players, one from each side, as his team being subjected to wholesale anti semitic abuse. The Manchester FA were less than impressed by Dennison’s antics. The two players were suspended and Dennison was fined and suspended for foul and abusive behaviour.
A wonderful post from the noted Middle East Correspondent, Jonathan Cook, denouncing Frankie Boyle and the malignant growth of ‘New Anti-Semitism’, which this site engages in continually, in alliance with much of the UK’s media. Ain’t impartiality grand: https://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2018-05-21/frankie-boyle-your-new-show-betrayed-gaza/
That is efficient activism Chris; one post in which you manage to include four named individuals whom I assume are perceived opponents (although I doubt you’d know them if they dropped a fridge on you), the ruling political party in the UK, The US President, nationalism and fascism all in response to an article about Arab terrorism at the Israeli border. Very concise.
Getting back to topic did you see the Al Jazeera infographic on David’s twitter feed? It was one of those target range figures that showed where all the bullets had hit all of the Arab protesters. According to the figures and lets remember these are from Al Jazeera, there were 568 head shots. 568 !! This against a total of 111 reported fatalities in 6 weeks. This must means that either our snipers are rubbish or that the Al Jazeera stats that I assume you rely upon are unreliable.
You will know that Hamas reported that 140,000 protesters have attended in total over the last 6 weeks and have claimed responsibility for 82 of the dead. Islamic Jihad and other groups have claimed 7. So we have slotted 89 terrorists which makes up 80% of all those killed just on the Hamas figures and the total % of fatalities, again on the Hamas figures is 0.07%. Removing the 89 terrorists and the figure is 0.015%. Unless you’re going to tell me that the Arabs that you support are a bunch of liars, please tell me again about this ‘massacre’.
How do you feel about Hamas stats Ian ?
Why do you ask?
Because I am interested in any answer. Why else would I ask.
What’s your level of interest? Are we back in rude shaped fruit or big zit picking territory?
Ian your way of dealing with questions you are afraid of answering is settling into a predictable pattern
Stephen, your way of posing questions from which you want a certain answer is settling into a predictable pattern.
Over 100 dead isn’t a massacre?
Next Settler family to be killed can’t be afforded such a description then? Course not.
Lets focus on the deaths shall we, all 112 of them between 30 March – 15 May: 44 killed by head and neck shots; 26 killed by shots to the upper torso both front and back (interesting shooting protesters in the back is it not); 11 killed by shots to the lower torso and pelvic region; 12 killed by having arms removed; 4 killed by shots to the legs and subsequent loss of limbs – not withstanding one 8 month old child killed via the inhalation of tear gas some 500 meters from any fence. Among our dead are one paramedic and two journalists, all wearing clear identification of who they were.
Is it usual for that most moral of armies, the IDF, to shoot persons in the back, shoot paramedics and doctors and also shoot Journalists?
As for the Hamas/Terrorist claims – are you seriously suggesting, namely the Israeli PR machine, never mind the Hamas PR machine that all those killed were Hamas operatives, particularly given the entire region between the fence and tent encampments – some 500 meters, for much of the time was shrouded in tear gas clouds and smoke, making identification, even with high powered optics somewhat difficult – unless you chaps have developed heat sensitive sniper optics usually associated with night time vision?
Figures correct as of 11.00PM 20 May.
Someone [possibly BtS]
The only person armchair general role playing is you with all your comments on armaments and tactics etc.
In front of me I have the Hamas Charter;
the second quote in the preamble is from Hasan al-Banna saying ‘Israel will be established and will stay established until Islam nullifies it’
Art 7 at the end the famous Hadith calls for the JEWS to be killed (not Israelis but Jews)
Art 8 starts; The Motto of the Islamic Resistance (line 3) ‘The Quran is its constitution’
Their constitution (the revision does not alter anything from the original) calls for the destruction of Israel and the killing of the Jews, employing whatever means is necessary including temporary ceasefires.
With this type of thinking by Hamas, what do you think would happen to the Jews on the other side of the border fence if the IDF allowed them through; a tea party or thousands of dead Jews
So please tell me what other alternatives were available to the IDF.
Mass call-ups would cause major disruption to Israel and would leave Israel little choice but to make it a full scale war because the reserve soldiers cannot be kept on duty indefinately
So again; what is your suggestion to how the IDF could have handled it any differently
Someone ( I hate anonymity as it smacks of ….)
My post was a series of possibilities as I was not there
All of your statements can only be soppositions because you were not there either
Carefull selection and editing of pictures and videos is both easy and common
I used to do photography and I could go into a darkroom and completely change pictures to suit what I wanted
In the digital age its even easier to manipulate and change images.
Your evidence from video is possibly true and possibly not
Rodgers the real bodger
Personal insult is not much of an argument
So you don’t like the length of my posts – totally irrelevant.
What is relevant is your inability to answer those posts with an intelligable civillized response
One has no issue responding to honest enquiry, i have issues with responding to pure Hasbara play book stuff – now off you go and finish your assignment of 10,000 words, which you have not completed.
Very easy to use more men , but that means calling up reserves, which cannot be done except in emergency.
And Hamas’ continuous provocations year in, year out cannot be called an emergency
Copious quantities of tear gas were used without effect as the Gazans are using improvised gas masks and the wind often blows from the Med inland pusing the tear gas into the soldiers faces along with the toxic smoke and fumes of burning tyres
Rodgers and bodgers
Only those that refuse to hear and see would be able to deny that most UN bodies have an automatic anti-Israel majority
There is the IoC with over 55 members and any country that subscribes to ‘progressive’ politics such as those paragons of virtue like Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea that will always vote against Israel.
So anything that the UN says about Israel is normally suspect because of that anti-Israel majority; its called the tyrany of the majority against the minority (in the playground called bullying)
Your reply to Leah ran into ‘thousands of words’ yet you managed to say less than nothing
Get a grip boyo; you’re losing it
The world mostly hates Israel because they prefer to see Jews being ‘good Jews’ and obeying when they are told to walk politely to the their deaths – the world certainly does not like Jews/Israel who defend themselves when attacked by genocidal Jew haters
Also there may be a a ‘little’ jealousy there as many in the world see a people that in 70 years have made the desert bloom and added so much to the world in the fields of the arts, science , technology and medicine to name some of those acheivments
Jealousy and envy are terrible motivators for constructive living
In the 1930s’ and 40s’ Jews didn’t have a country and millions of Jews died
I take it that was the Palestinian’s fault then, hence the reason why more than 750,000 of them were ethnically cleansed in 1948 – I’m sure they’ll be happy to learn they were ejected from their lands for crimes committed to Jews by Europeans, be they German’s, Ukrainians, Estonian’s, Latvian’s and a plethora of other European nations. Great stuff.
If you are so proud of living among people that are tolerant, why do you support people that are intollerant of othes (often violently so), who teach their children to hate in school, who celebrate the murder of civilians, who are homophobic and mysoginistic.
The Christians in the Middle East and Palestine are being Ethnically Cleansed, yet nobody seems interested
Yet when Israel defends itself the world goes ballistic – the hyperbole used to desribe Israels actions becomes hysterical – and things done in other countries that make Israels actions pail into insignificance go unreported and uncommented on
This is one of those questions that puzzles me
This is ever so funny, particularly about the Christians, whom were actually out protesting at the fence with fellow muslims, the Christians of Syria have also welcomed the eradication of ISIS from much of Syrian territory, whilst the Christians in Jerusalem seem a little perturbed by Israeli Jewish actions of late – still, please keep up the good work, particularly in light of your alliance, well that’s Israel’s alliance, with that other bunch of murderous bastards in Saudi Arabia
The only time I have ever seen an in depth coherent piece from you is when you denigrate a number of named individuals and Jewish organizations
I am not sure to whom you bear animus; is it those named individuals, the entirety of Jewish organisations that support the Jewish community in the UK, Israel and its supporters or Jews in general
Do try a reasoned response rather than a witty side winder of a riposte that means less than the imaginary paper you typed it on
On 21st May from Chris Rogers; “Among our dead are one paramedic and two journalists, all wearing clear identification of who they were.”
“Among our dead….” seriously Chris “OUR”? You are reducing the misery and suffering of Gazans at the hands of their Arab terrorist oppressors to some sort of football support?
You believe that your tepid keyboard activism and tokenist tapping of propagandist slogans to strangers on the internet entitles you to say “our dead”? You think that you’ve put the same shift in and suffered the vicious intolerance of Arab extremism that gives you the entitlement to say “our dead”?
I imagine that the parents of the 8 month old baby will struggle to see the parallels. They may ask how often you have been press-ganged into rocking up at a militarized border to shield the actions of armed terrorists whilst holding your tiny child, knowing that crowd dispersal measures involving tear gas could fill the lungs of your baby with an already diagnosed heart condition.
Do your experiences in your armchair compare to this? Is the arrival of your Latte threatened in any way? Do me a favour. Until such time, heaven forbid, that you have got the faintest clue what it is like to be subjugated by brutal, murderous Arab thugs you don’t get to say “our dead”.
Do I pre-suppose that the other almost 3,000 persons who suffered bullet wounds, many of them life changing, were all Terrorists, among them Christian Priests?
Further, I do enough shit in my own neck of the woods to get things done, however, and as the Gaza Protestors have found out, step out of line where I’m living and you are likely to disappear, as several local democracy activist have done, and that’s in a SAR, not on the mainland, where a bullet to the head is not irregular – remember, I live in a totalitarian State, you should try it one day.
Chris. Thanks offered threefold.
Firstly for acknowledging that unless you have endured the burden directly of terrorist oppression at the hands of murderous Arab thugs you cannot appropriate ownership of the bereaved.
Secondly for having the humility and decency to confirm that you are very remote from the actual scene of the conflict and are relying on the media for information which is often confused and inconsistent. This is reflected in your own numbers from post to post.
Finally for pointing out quite rightly that unlike it’s Arab neighbours, Israel is a democracy rather than a totalitarian state and a lovely place to live as a consequence.
You have my respect for your honesty and bravery and especially as you do not hide your views behind the curtain of anonymity.
You quote specific figures of casualties as disseminated by the Hamas Gaza Health Authority who are known from previous clashes to manipulate figures
You also reference the fact that the area was shrouded in smoke and tear gas so visibility was restricted
As such snipers are not going to be 100% accurate and the snipers will fire at perceived battlefield threats that are moving rapidly preventing accurate shooting
But then the reality that Israeli Jews live is of no consequence to you , and if the border had been breached by the Gazans and hundreds of Israelies had been killed, I am in no doubt that you would quietly close your computer and pretend that nothing had happened
I think you are being uncharitable Richard. We know that in the scenario you paint in which Jewish civilians in Nachal Oz or Nirim were to be murdered heaven forbid, by Arab infiltrator, there will be contributors here that will characterise the atrocities as justifiable acts by desperate freedom fighters. These are the same posters that regularly create equivalence between the murder of a Jewish child sleeping in her bed and that of an armed terrorist attacking a militarized border.
One question that does arise from the recent exchanges. If those contributors believe neither the information presented by the Arabs nor that presented by the Jews, what’s left for them?
It is ever so funny that the Christian population of Gaza has decreased fom approximately 3000 in 2009 t0 1100 in 2018
I wonder why that is?
Possibly it is due to the warm embrace and religous tolerance offered to all non-Sunni Muslims in Gaza
I’m sure the not so subtle pressure to do what the rulers decree would ensure many Christians at the border; just to guarantee personal safety you know as in all totalitarian dictatorships
Conversely, the Christian population of Israel has shot up from approximately 115 000 in 1990 to 151 000 in 2009
I wonder why that is?
Probably due to the real religous plurism and equality offered by Israel to all religous minorities and guaranteed by law
But then your animus to Israel and selective quoting of fact are your defining feature
Funny how you claim all the Arabs that left the Mandate of Palestine were ethnically cleansed.
In every war situation I have ever studied there are refugees fleeing the battlefield.
Yet you claim that the Jewish/Arab war of 1948-9 is the only war in the history of our world that there were no refugees fleeing war; only refugees as the result of ethnic cleansing.
Your narrative describes the Palestinians as a helpless group without agency and ability to decide their own fate without the help of big white man from Europe
You claim to know history but distort it to suit your narrative
Prior to 1948 there were nearly a million Jews in the Arab/Muslim lands.
Today there are a few thousands.
These Jews were Ethnically Cleansed from the MENA lands purely because they were Jews, and not because of war or civil strife; actions that are commonly called racist
Most of those Jews arrived in Israel penniless after leaving all their possesions and wealth in the lands they were forced to leave.
But then facts are not your strong point so no doubt you will ignore this post as is your way
Where Arab villages were destroyed and their inhabitants driven out by Jewish militia/terrorists groups precisely because they were NOT Jews. Did these Arabs have a chance to sell their homes and possessions? The Jews had their Israel to call home, the Arabs had refugee camps.
“Jewish people their age in Israel spend those years in military uniforms.” …… being trained to murder ….. and ordered to murder.
I’m more for the education of the students. There’s a civilised country for you!
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