Yesterday there was a meeting between the Jewish Leadership Council (JLC), Board of Deputies (BOD), and Jeremy Corbyn, leader of the UK Labour Party. The Jewish organisations reported that the meeting had been disappointing as Corbyn had failed to meet even the ‘minimum level of action’ necessary. As I wrote last week, these are the opening moves of a game ‘that must be played‘. Neither side currently has any choice but to engage in this dance, even though both know that neither will move. The British Jews can only hope that Jeremy Corbyn will receive a slap around the face at the upcoming local elections, Jeremy Corbyn is hoping those elections will prove that he no longer has to pretend to care.
This isn’t a disagreement over wording in a contract. What separates the two-sides is an unbridgeable ideological gulf, with the Corbynite world-vision further tainted by the idea that Jews form part of the privileged group they intend to remove from power. That’s antisemitism lite. The full blown antisemitism in the ideology sees the entire system as being run by hidden Jewish power and finance.
Where it has mutated and been allowed to infest modern society, was through a simple switch of the word ‘Jew’ with ‘Zionist’. For those who have not yet seen this post, this was taken from the report into Palestine Live:
An image of a Jewish anti-Zionist ‘sterilising’ an antisemite to make him fit for public consumption. To stop using tropes of Jewish money and power by simply saying Zionist instead. This ‘switch’ is fundamental to the spread of the virus. Once in place, accusations of racism are swept aside. Mike Cushman is Jewish but not Zionist, David Cameron is Zionist but not Jewish, ergo an attack on Zionism has nothing to do with Jews.
It falls apart because without antisemitism, it doesn’t make sense. ‘Zionist’ is used in the place of ‘neocon’ and Israel therefore, as the Zionist state, becomes the HQ of neocons. This is a world vision taken straight from ‘Mein Kampf’ and the Hitlerite notion that Jews only wanted their state not for independence, but rather as ‘a central organization of their international world cheating’.
Almost all anti-Zionists speak of Zionist control or manipulation of the media. Many also mention Rothschild, and give Zionists global financial control as well. As you move through the spectrum from antisemitism lite, to full blow Jew haters, Zionists become blamed for more and more of the ills in the world. There is not a problem on this planet I have not seen blamed on Zionists. And the place this global domination is all plotted? Israel.
These are Corbyn’s bedfellows. The people he is politically dependent on for survival.
Context one – Zionism and Jews
As a people, Jews have recently had Genocide committed against them. By recently, I mean my parent’s generation, by Genocide I mean that the Jewish people lost a third of their number to industrial slaughter. This happened on European soil. It was of German design, but required high levels of antisemitism across several nations to succeed, mainly within Eastern Europe.
The UK is far from immune to criticism. It did fight a long and bloody war against German fascism, and eventually (alongside the Russians, Americans and forces from the Commonwealth) defeated the Nazi menace. But on the Jewish question the British failed miserably. Britain proudly reminds us of the transport to safety of ten thousand (mainly) Jewish children before the war (the Kinderstransport), yet it had it within its power to open the gates to Palestine. Instead it refused to do so, strangling Jewish immigration numbers throughout the late 1930’s and eventually shutting the doors completely.
Even after the Holocaust the British refused to budge. As the horror of the Holocaust became apparent, the British were still taking Jewish refugees who survived concentration camps in Europe and was placing them into British camps on Cyprus.
Nobody in Europe has any right to attack Zionism. It isn’t theirs to attack – it is ours. Zionism is by a huge margin, the voice of the Jewish majority. The Holocaust ended any ethical external argument over Zionism and any future discussion is solely an internal Jewish one. That is, in itself, the essence of Zionism. Only we have a right to ‘change’ our own definitions. Since 1948 Zionism set sail in project Israel. This means that internal dissent (anti-Zionist, post-Zionist or non-Zionist Jews) become a logical extension of a Zionist spectrum and an acceptable part of Israeli political discourse. That is to say, for as long as that takes place internally.
What is not acceptable is external ‘Jewish‘ dissent, and I emphasise the word Jewish. The only legitimate use of anti-Zionism with a Jewish identity can take place within the community. For example, if an anti-Zionist Jew takes a position in the UK that opposes majority Jewish thought, and they attempt to create support for that position through convincing non-Jews, then they do this as anti-Zionists, not Jews. They have no right to speak as anti-Zionist Jews. The ‘Jewish’ identity is left behind with the majority on the issue of self-determination.
Why is this true? Because it makes no difference at all how many non-Jews do or do not agree with Zionism. It is not theirs to agree or disagree with. It is ours. Zionism is a Jewish question that only Jews can answer. At the point these Jews use their Jewish identity to create non-Jewish support to attack the consensus on Jewish self-determination, they are acting as adversaries against the will of the majority of Jews. Given if they could create majority support within the Jewish community, then this would be their aim, it is clear that they knowingly seek external support because they are aware they are a fringe group. It is of little surprise then that most of these Jews (and there are not many of them) only use the Jewish identity on the issue of Zionism. They weaponise a Jewish identity they have no other use for.
For the enemies of Jewish people, these anti-Zionist Jews are no more than useful idiots. For non Jewish people, to support Zionism is to support the Jewish people, to oppose Zionism is to oppose the Jewish people. Zionism was our choice.
Context two – the Corbyn – Jewish disagreement
Jeremy Corbyn comes from the ideological swamp within which ‘Jews as privileged’ sits comfortably. As intersectionality has created alliances between Marxists, black movements and Islamic groups, ‘Zionist’ as a system of ‘white privilege’ has embedded this idea further. That Zionism was given international legitimacy through the imperial powers of the day, cements this narrative completely. ‘Palestinians’ become the indigenous victims of white European colonial invaders. This is how the conflict is viewed. 100 years later and the European invaders have the indigenous people locked into Gaza and pinned down in the West Bank.
At best, Zionists can ask that they are not treated harshly, once justice is brought, reparations paid and all the rights the Palestinians claim for themselves have been granted.
And that is why we reach an impasse. This world-vision is inherently antisemitic because it entirely misreads Jews. And if you do not understand Jews properly, you will never comprehend Zionism. Having a few carefully selected Jewish friends who agree with you cannot remove the stain of antisemitism, but it can confuse enough people long enough to embed the argument in the processes of the very sewer from which the entire ideology stems.
The JLC and BOD are not asking Jeremy Corbyn to make cosmetic changes. They are inside a butchers shop trying to buy fish. It doesn’t matter from this point how angry we get, how disappointed we become or what threats are tabled, Jeremy Corbyn’s shop does not sell fish.
The greatest enemies of Jews, have always been Corbyn’s friends. This is his ideological camp. We cannot extract him from it, because it is who he is.
Singing songs about process
The only possible discussions will be over process. To discuss the speed with which mechanisms will work if we can agree on antisemitism. Yet will will almost never agree and there will always be voices in Corbyn’s ear that reinforce the world vision that he adheres to. Thus antisemitism in Labour will always be just ‘anti-Zionism’, no matter what those pesky Zionists were accused of by the Labour member. Given that Ken Livingstone still hasn’t been expelled and there are demonstrations to re-instate him, the Jewish community and Jeremy Corbyn are not even speaking the same language. In fact, the only notable expulsion, Tony Greenstein, wasn’t even a success. We must remember that the Jews who have Corbyn’s ear – hate Tony Greenstein. For them, this was no sacrifice. They threw something to the Jews that they simply didn’t want.
Corbyn can do no more than give empty gestures even as he backtracks on any progress that is made. Everything is a contradiction. In yesterday’s meeting he apparently refused to adopt the IHRA definition (in full), which many believe had already been adopted. This is where Jeremy Corbyn wants everything – locked in vagueness. In the Evening Standard article Corbyn stated that ‘a genuine two-state solution is essential to lasting peace in the Middle East’ and yet within a paragraph was protecting anti-Zionists who explicitly oppose the very solution he suggests is vital for peace. Corbyn is not a natural two state supporter. He sees the 2SS as the most that can probably be taken back from the European thieves who took the Palestinian land.
The conversation between Jeremy Corbyn and the Jews cannot make sense because Zionism and Jews are intertwined and Zionism doesn’t make sense within Corbyn’s paradigm. Corbyn cannot justify it to himself and he certainly cannot justify it to his supporters. Attacking ‘privileged’ Jews, especially dressed up in the ‘Zionist’ disguise, is almost certainly a vote winner within his faction. The only question is whether anyone else cares enough to not vote for him because of it.
Today in Westminster there was the hearing of Mark Wadsworth, a Jeremy Corbyn supporter accused of antisemitism. Labour MP Ruth Smeeth was escorted by sympathetic MPs on her way to give evidence against Wadsworth. A group had also come to protest in favour of Wadsworth and against the ‘witch hunt’.
I stood and watched for about an hour, as the usual suspects gathered to suggest the attack on Corbyn is fabricated. Greenstein was there (in image). So many faces I recognise from my research. I hardly spoke to anyone (as if they would talk to me these days), but still heard conspiracy tales from the one or two I encountered. This is the entire crew (there is a slight distortion in the image because it is a montage):
Meanwhile, in constituencies across the country, pro-Corbyn campaigners are laying plans for further solidifying their hold on the party. Len McCluskey talks of holding to account those MPs who attack Corbyn over antisemitism. By this he no doubt means those who walk with Ruth Smeeth. As Jews we watch as Jeremy Corbyn takes this chess match exactly where Jeremy Corbyn wants it to be. Confusion, arguments over process, followed by more inaction. Zionism is an enemy not to be rewarded. And it’s ‘stalemate’ – for now.
All eyes turn to the local election results.
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449 thoughts on “The Corbyn v Jews chess match. Gaining time by doing nothing”
A bit slow off the starting block with this post, I mean, at least the BoD and their cronies had their statement pre-prepared before even meeting with Corbyn, so thought you’d do likewise. Still the chaps at Jewdas were were on the case rapidly, which was nice.
Anyhow fact remains you can’t appease those who can’t be appeased, which is where we are at presently.
Talking of posts on this subject matter, old Beller’s was quicker than you, so in the interests of balanced coverage, here’s what he has written on his Blog: https://bookburnersrus.wordpress.com
Yesterday was interesting too. I can’t attribute this because I don’t remember which twitter thread I saw it on but it sums up the events perfectly.
” A bunch of white, middle class privileged folks march in solidarity with a white, middle class privileged woman in her attempt to frame a black man. Where will the after party be? The Ku Klux Klan Arms ?”
If you posted that about black people you would get hounded for racism
Counter chat this…
From the River to the Sea,
Pal-e-STINE Will Never Be!
Happy Nakba to all!
Do you travel the streets of the UK & Israel with the head of a Palestinian child on a pike by any chance, or are you just a Bot posing as a slug?
I’m guessing more the Texicana panhandle. That’s when he is not having chilli eating competitions on the Houston Astrodome car park;
Stephen, what has fascinated me over the last two days is to see our own IHRA argument become a public internal Labour spat.
Well that be the litmus test at the end of the day.
A bit late to this Party you are Divid, the Party has been discussing the IHRA nonsense since last August/September. Indeed, it took up a fair bit of time at the Party Conference.
The good news is though David that should the risible 11 examples be adopted legal challenges will be made, which will be fun, particularly if if goes the way of that rather famous Employment Tribunal.
That ’employment tribunal’ was an extremely important vehicle in guiding us on how to, and not to fight our enemies.
Jews try to learn from mistakes, and that was a mistake/error of tactic
The choice of court was wrong and method of practise was not suited to the case,
The reason the case was brought was real enough and is still valid to this day
Are you upset that your fellow fascist socialist heroes surrendered, unconditionally, to the US, UK and the SU on May 8, 1945?
Are you upset that the Israelis are NOT the unarmed Jews of WW2?
Are you upset that the armies of 5 Arab countries, none of which was the army of an existing palestine, were not able to murder the Jews of Israel?
Are you upset that the Laboor party continues to “clean house”, clean itself of racists and fascist within its leadership?
You are behind the curve old bean, although, I understand how difficult it is parading around with Palestinian kids heads on pikes as you celebrate nearly 40 murders and 5000 maimed in Gaza.
Still, as a qualified adult lecturer, courtesy of the University of Wales, Cardiff College (University of Cardiff) let me educate you a little. Being referred too as a Communist I’d like to think the Soviet Union crushed the Nazi war machine and, with the US & British received the Gernam surrender from Admiral Donita – I had family members in the British Army at the time, both in Europe and down in Burma. Indeed, I even had a distant family relative at part of Colonialist adventures in South Africa, most notably at Rourke’s Drift – he’s buried local to where I was born.
Further, many from the South Wales coal fields joined the Republican cause in spain in 1936, so, we have a honourable tradition of fighting fascism, such as that now self evident in Israel.
Now, do you have any photo’s available, much as the KKK like to take, of your kids head on a pike that i can share on Social Media. i mean. the negative PR is already all over the internet, although appears not to have penetrated Collier’s mindset, the mindset of the BoD/ JLC and certain racists posting here.
Oh dear, please try again old bean and looking forward to Ian’s BS on these matters of fact – perhaps Ian will read the Pontypool Free Press to verify some facts, alas no Zionist folks parading kids heads on pike available in that publication, well for now that is.
After reading that I fear we have driven poor Chris irredeemably mad! Still he is not the first person to portray Jews as savage sub-humans, and certainly won’t be the last.
I’m sorry to rain on your parade of hate, but its the Israeli’s, their ardent Zionist component (not all of whom are Jewish) and Israeli apologists (again, not whom of all are Jewish) who revel in dehumanising other members of the human species, namely Palestinians and Arabs. And yet I’m the racist!!!!
Shockingly Chris spoke the truth about himself.
“And yet I’m the racist!!!!”
You are on the beginning of the road to recovery.
Happy Nakba you racist blowhard!
I’m at a loss here dear, could you elucidate for me, or does opposing Israel’s racist agenda against the Palestinian’s, including shooting kids with sniper rifles at a distance, actually constitute RACISM?
One thing is for sure, under the IHRA definition of AS, and mysterious 11 examples attached, I’d actually be an ‘anti-semite’ for being critical of Israeli murders. Luckily, this crap is not codified in English Law, so I enjoy the Freedom & Liberty to denounce Israel, the UK, the USA, France, Saudi Arabia, Burma etc.etc.
Careful old bean, I’m no slouch unlike you I’m afraid.
Racist Chris, We too have the Freedom to denounce Islamofascism, Euro Fascist Socialism, Terrorism.
And tell Hamass to STOP USING CHILDREN as HUMAN SHIELDS.
Lets talk racism
Chris lets talk racism, or as you put it Israeli racism.
Afterb 1948 there were approximately 165 000 Arabs (they did not yet call themselves Palestinian) left in what became Israel.
After 1948 every Palestinian (Jews were called Palestinians then) was ETHNICALLY CLEANSED or MASSACRED from what became known as the West Bank and East Jerusalem by the Jordanians and Arabs.
The area effectively became JUDENFREI for possibly the first time in over 3000 years
In 1948 there were nearly a million Jews in the Middle East/Norh Africa (MENA) region.
Today there are about 10 000.
Theses Jews were Ethnically Cleansed by anti-Jewish actions and legislation that made remaining a near impossibility.
This happened because they were Jews, and for no other reason.
When they left their countries of origin they left everything (property, bussinesses, money, culture, the graves of their deceased) and arrived in Israel penniless.
That is real RACISM, and it is racism that you support by your blind and unapologetic support for the anti-Israel coalition that continuously reveals its affinity to the racism deployed against Israel and Jews.
As in every single country on this little planet of ours, racism exists in Israel.
But as the dynamic democracy that Israel is, the problem is recognised all the time, not swept under the carpet by the dictatorial racist regimes that you and your ilk tend to laud.
So remember those old English adages
‘those who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones’,
‘the pot calling the kettle black’
Chris, Zionism is the belief in the existence of Israel as a homeland for the Jews. I will happily argue about Israel’s right to exist with you all day long. This makes me an ‘ardent Zionist’ in your book. I don’t care and it is a badge I wear with great pride. If you support the destruction of Israel then you are an ardent antisemite. What I will not do here is analyse the actions of everything the Israelis do just for your entertainment. Why do you try to hold Israel to a higher level of behaviour, why is antisemitism the only form of racism you turn a blind eye to and why do you portray the actions of Israel as uniquely evil.
you really do not have a clue what Israel or the Israelis are like.
For someone who has no clue, shall we remind ourselves of this wonderful bit of research undertaken in the San Francisco Bay Area recently on Jewish attitudes: https://jewishfed.org/sites/default/files/BayArea_CommunityStudyHighlights.pdf
I do love it when people who do not understand the Jewish community use these stats. It is almost as bad as when Jewish activists use the stats to suggest something that suits their agenda rather than reading them properly. The vast majority believe in the idea of a Jewish home, the less being Jewish enters your life, the less likely you are to support Israel and assimilation is a major concern. It always was but seems to be increasing. An ever decreasing circle. As Jews leave the community they tend to throw Israel away with the rest of ‘being Jewish’. There is nothing there that supports your case unless you take pleasure in Jews disappearing. Always interesting that the people who always promote ethnic cultures and celebrate diversity seem to take pleasure in the decay of Diaspora Jewry. Why are you pleased by this ‘wonderful research’ Chris?
you have posted this link before
Some American Jews in America are slavish followers of the ideology that you follow, mainly west coast and east coast Jews
They represent a tiny proportion of Jews, but their Jewishness has been weaponised against Israel, and the noise they make is far larger than their numbers
You hate Israel and grasp anything that furthers your bias
Chris, Here is a brief list of the atrocities committed by YOUR Islamofacist heroes.
– London’s 7/7 2005 attack
– Ramming and beheading of British soldier Lee Rigby, in London
– Beheading of journalist Daniel Pearl
– Knifing and murder of filmmaker Theo van Gogh
– 1968 assassination of US Senator Robert F. Kennedy, by a palestinian
– Massacre of the staff of the humour magazine Charlie Hebdo
– Massacre of the crowd at the Bataclan music venue
– Bombing of Pan Am 103 in 1988
– Ramming massacre of people in Nice France on Bastille day
– Bombing of the Boston Marathon
– Massacre at the Pulse nightclub in Orlando Florida
– Massacre of a Christmas party in San Bernardino California
– Bombing of an airport in Brussels
– Mumbai India massacre
– 500,000 dead in Syria, Muslims killing Muslims
– 1,000,000 dead in the 8 year Iraq/Fascist Iran war
– Sadaam Husseins use of poison gas on the town of Halabja Iraq
– Chechyn bombing of the Moscow subway
– Massacre of the Beslan elementary school
– Massacre of tourists in Luxor Egypt
– Ramming attack of the Manhattan bike path
– Ramming attack of the London and Westminster bridges
– Interrupted sneaker and underwear bombing of two inflight passenger planes
– Nairobi Kenya mall massacre
– Bombing two US embassies in Africa and the collateral deaths of innocent Africans
– Fort Hood Texas military base massacre
– Failed (thanks to the police) attack on Garland Texas conference
– Hamass executions of Gay teens (pushed off rooftops)
– Fascist Iran executions of Gay teens (hanging from construction cranes)
– Girls stoned to death over “family honour” infractions in Afghanistan and Fascist Iran
– Death threats against writer Salman Rushdie, for writing a book of fiction
– Death threats (issued by Fascist Iran) against Danish cartoonists
– Bombing of the Chelsea section of Manhattan
– Massacre at the observation deck of the Empire State building
– Massacre on the Brooklyn Bridge
– Islamist rape and child sexual exploitation gangs in Rotherham UK
– Open threats of 9/11 scale atrocities on the UK and Europe
– Murder of Coptic Christians in Egypt
– Destruction of two 1,500 year old statues of Budda in Bamiyan Afghanistan
– ISIS videos of the beheading of captives by a masked man with a British accent
The above is just the tip of the iceeberg.
YOU Chris are Part of the Problem. A WORLD-WIDE problem, one that you would have encountered at Airports which screen passengers and cargo for bombs and weapons.
Why use a few words when you can use a million? I do like the Hasbara lessons you have taken though, which seem to consume much of your time.
The chaps and lasses over at Jewdas actually offer lessons in Yiddish, which I think you may enjoy. On second thoughts though, such lessons have no ‘hate’ component within them, so may not be appropriate in your case.
Hateful Chris, Haters gonna hate and bomb and stab and gas and run over people in NYC, London, Paris, Moscow, Jerusalem, Brussels, Boston, Orlando, San Bernardino, Ottawa, Copenhagen, Bali, Madrid, Palmyra, Beslan, Bamiyan, Halabja, Damascus, Mumbai, Sydney, Lockerbie, Cairo, Luxor, …
You forgot to mention every atrocity carried out by Chris’s friends Fatah, PLO, Hamas and Hizbollah. He is warrior in the ‘fight’ against European Facism but more than happy to look the other way when it comes to real Islamofacist atrocities (as opposed to the fantasy ones he accuses the Jews of.) Chris, do tell us why you rate the so called ‘crimes’ of the Jews above everything else that happens in this world??????
My partial list of Islamist terrorist attacks highlight the fact that Islamofascists are at War with the ENTIRE WORLD.
And these are only the most recent attrocities commited against Jews
Your wanton use of out context figures on casualties exposes your Jew hate bias more than ever.
The vast majoity of those ‘casualties’ is as the result of NON-LETHAL crowd control measures via tear gas.
That you conflate the injuries caused by gunfire to conceal the fact that most were not injuries as such but health related problems caused by said tear gas, illuminates your anti-Jewish/Israel bias.
Saying that you are supposedly a lecturer does not say much besides the fact that many many lecturers practise not because they are good, but because they have undergone some form of training for a certificate.
Certificates are not a mark of quality, rather they show that someone has the ability to pass muster on certain tick box criteria
This obssesion of yours with Jews running around with heads on pikes.
To the best of my knowledge this is not anything practised by Jews, though it was certainly a common practise of both sides in the Christian and Muslim battles in East and South Europe for hundreds of years until the not to distant future.
So would apprecite if you could use this imagery in the correct context instead of blaming Jews for what as actually the actions of Christians and Muslims
Jews were disproportionately represented in the Spanish civil war on the republican communists side.
Considering the way the communists have treated Jews, I often wonder why they supported such blood thirsty Antisemetic Jew hating thugs
It’s noted that David is still allowing young Edward to post hate speech on this website. Let’s have no more neurosis then on Corbyn’s visit to other sites.
Racist you, calling others racist.
oh please do shut up. I don’t really moderate here, and the comment section is almost unique because of it. If you see any Nazi style posts on this comment board (not just nasty stuff you don’t like, but real racism) then feel free to let me know. I am really lenient and I’ve even patiently allowed elements of Holocaust revisionism here. I give more leeway to the ‘other side’ because as the truth isn’t in their favour it would be unfair if I held them to high standards. Because of this, I do need to tolerate some abuse the other way. As everyone here knows I hate racism but it is an open forum, nothing is secret and I expect people to behave like adults.
Also noted that David is still allowing Chris and his multiple personae, Bellers and others to post some deeply unpleasant examples of the counterpoint. If both sides are moaning it must indicate that some balance in hosting is being achieved.
Don’t think I’ve ever noticed Chris and Bellers using hate speech as Edward does,. Remind us, Ian.
Of course you don’t notice hate speech from your quarters, chris and dumb bellamy etc., because you are blinded by your own racism.
Happy Nakba and may all your Jihads end up as Nakbas!
No need to offer any assistance here, I’m competent at facing down ardent Zionists and Israeli apologists without any assistance. Indeed, as Ian states below, I don’t hide anywhere, post under my real identity globally and was banned from twitter only 11 days ago for calling for Ms May, Trump and Macron to be disposed off like the Italian Partisan’s disposed of their warmongers, specifically Mussolini, via that trusted hanging implement, piano wire – allegedly this was hateful. And there was me thinking I was attempting to stop WWIII!
But, you are correct about my anti-racist credentials, however, when its politics I’m rather unforgiving, hence my contempt for those on this Blog who support the murder of youths, women, infants and anything else if it so happens to be associated with Palestine all in the name of a xenophobic Zionism and Israel.
Chris, you are as “anti-racist” as the BNP and the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamass, Hezbullah, Muslim Brotherhood, Taliban, Boko Haram, ISIS, Al Qada, Wahabbists, Fascist Iran.
You are not the brightest bulb in the chandelier, so let me remind you that it was actors within the Israeli state itself that actually assisted with the birthing of Hamas, which was mean’t to undermine Fatah, regrettably it came back to bite Israel in the arse.
As ever though, let me recommend a good read for you, which you may comprehend, however I seriously doubt it: Prof. Jeffrey M. Bale, The Darkest Sides of Politics.
Crazy Chris, Then why isn’t Hamass friends with Israel, instead of being an enemy?
The Kurds are friendly towards Israel, but NOT Hamass?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Edward, do you ever get out of your padded cell?
I mean, I do the courtesy of posting links, none of which it seems you have any interest in, and, when persons do read them, they dispute finding or deride completely conclusions that don’t back-up their own prejudices. Ian Kay suffers a similar afflictions. I take some antibiotics if I were you to clear up the eye infection you suffer from. The mental instability I can’t assist you with.
More tossed word salad from Crazy Chris.
Crazy Chris, You should take your anti-psychotics as directed. Your lax attention to Doctors orders have taken their toll on your mind.
Browse the threads. It’s all in the public domain and as there is almost no moderation it is a permanent record of the way that you and others used social media to express your opinions and the voices that you used.
It is a fascinating historical record.
David hits the nail (and the antisemites) on the head with this article. This expains the verbal diarrhoea from the usual suspects triggered by this article. These usual suspects are, of course, jubilant that Herr Corbyn is thinking what they are thinking. But if Corbyn takes complete control of ‘the party formerly known as Labour’, does anyone here really think the Right are going to just sit back and let it happen. Who knows what ‘dark forces’ on the Right, Corbyn’s regressive socialism will unleash. And as usual Jews will be stuck in the middle. Thankfully, this time there is somewhere for Jews to go when Britain regresses into the dark ages.
Have you been cultivating and picking magic mushrooms again?
I can inform you that we have lots of great magic mushrooms on Chepstow racecourse & they are free. Indeed, where I live, if you roam a few minutes to our hillsides and find a few lonely trees, you’ll find many magic mushrooms – I can take you picking them if you like?
However, whatever mushrooms you consumed on this occasion are evidently giving you a very bad trip. This actually is one of the downsides of magic mushrooms, which is why I’ve always recommended LSD, but only consume in the company of friends, which in your case is Edward et al and their pikes with Palestinian heads erected on – much like a KKK parade don’t you think?
Chris, is your brain damage from birth or were you struck in the head late in life?
Fascinating! Thanks for taking time off from your Jew baiting to tell me.
What exactly is the point of this post about mushrooms other than giving you the opportunity to meander
Richard, The point is he is being paid 50 cents a word. Thats the point!
Exactly what I was discussing with someone a couple of days ago. It is going to be like being caught in a vice.
Oh dear Arkush screws up AGAIN. And this is the org that would run the Labour Party
I do think sometimes you are a little too harsh on Arkush, who only has the best interest of Elite Jewish folk at heart. We’ll miss him when he’s gone, particularly the chaps and lasses over at Jewdas – perhaps Arkush will borrow the anti-capitalist beetroot to beat his enemies with, his enemies being legion it would seem.
Chris I don’t think Jonny will ever be gone. When he got elected President Marie Van Zyl got elected VP and took over his position as chair of the ” defence ” division whose purpose is to defend Jews from the likes of you and me. It was a whole year before she was allowed to open her mouth
Jonny is not standing for re election because he has worn himself out with micro management. He doesn’t trust anyone but himself to deliver. That would be ok except he always screws up and is adept at plucking defeat from the jaws of victory. He will have a rest and then come back sticking his nose here there and everywhere. He truly thinks that he single handedly stands in the way of a second holocaust. A bit like David ? o:)
Trust me I know him better than his wife does. Probably because his wife hasn’t been paying the close attention that I have.
Bel – Oh dear, Are you still pissed out of your head after attending Corbyn’s F*** The Jews afterparty???
Norm Corbyn has an awfully long way to go before I would attend any party of his.
Norm, Norm, Norm Sir,
Since when has attending a Jewish Seder as part of a long withstanding religious festival been ‘fucking Jews’ may I enquire? Indeed, your language on this occasion has caused considerable offence to me because its actually anti-semitic and I always considered this site as being opposed to AS, not encouraging it against the ‘wrong sort of Jews’ in your humble opinion.
Shocked, shocked at your racist comments towards Leftist peers of mine who so happen to be decent Socialists and Jewish.
Forgot you were of a sensitive disposition. Not the Jewish Seder. I was referring to the after party after lasts night’s jigger-pokery. https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/corbyn-meeting-board-jlc-1.463017
Oh, you mean that travesty last night that Corbyn should just ignore. I mean, since when have Tories had any right whatsoever to demand anything that the Labour Party does?
Indeed, we have enough Red Tory racists within our ranks, many were to be found issuing support to that CIA asset, Ruth Smeeth this morning – my does a picture paint a million words. So many white faces heaping bile on an actual Windrush Generation anti-racist. The Kamikaze Squad as they refer to themselves should be exercised like any cancer. If they like their racism they’d be most welcome in the Tory Party, which could do with some new blood I’m reliably informed.
Yes because asking Corbyn to stop abusing Jews anti-semitically is comletely unreasonable. Expecially, when jew haters form such an important part of Corbyn’s core support!
“”Nobody in Europe has any right to attack Zionism. It isn’t theirs to attack – it is ours. Zionism is by a huge margin, the voice of the Jewish majority. The Holocaust ended any ethical external argument over Zionism and any future discussion is solely an internal Jewish one”
Although Jewish, David prefers to live in Britain, which is in Europe yet thinks that he has a right to support Zionism. Strange that.
Can’t understand how he could anyway as his contention is that Zionism is no one defined thing.
Dumb Davy, Did Zionists or British Islamofascists bomb London on 7/7 2005????
Did Zionists or British Islamofascists behead British soldier Lee Rigby on the streets of London?
As you don’t live in Israel, David doesn’t think that you should have an opinion on Zionism, Ted.
Dumb Davy, Back to your room. It’s time for your meds.
That isn’t true – that comment isn’t supported anywhere in the article.
So, people in Texas can have an opinion on Zionism(it being what you want it to be) but no European can?
nope. you need to work on your comprehension skills.
“Nobody in Europe has any right to attack Zionism. It isn’t theirs to attack – it is ours. ”
Did you mean to convey that no non-Jew in Europe has any right….?
Ah, I do apologise. Your first example referenced Jews – so I thought that was your point. I explicitly emphasise this in the blog. On attitudes towards Zionism, non Jews can do what they like, there is no need to take any notice of them.
…. and Arab-Israeli attitudes to Zionism?
There may be no need to take any notice of them, but you take an awful lot of notice of them.
If you care to read, Zionism is the Jews desire for a national home.
It does belong to Jews, but non-Jews are welcome.
If some Jews don’t like Zionism, well Judaism is a big tent that allows a great variety of ideas.
If opposition to any of those multitudal views is voiced, an the atmosphere gets heated, well that is another part of Judaism, lots of ideas and lots of argument
But Zionism is Jewish, and is not dictated by where you live as there are anti-Zionist Jews in Israel as there are many Zionist Jews in the diaspora
I think that the responses above from Chris in his various implausible personae and the forced tones in which they are presented answers the point quite conclusively about the freedom of expression offered to every poster by the host. David is more pragmatic than the moderators of other social channels and recognises when a contributor is serious and when they are not.
Unlike you I’m actually committed to opposing the murders of innocents where ever they be found, unless, its national liberation struggles and those targeted are agents of an oppressive Regime or Colonialist State, in which case, such actions under International Law are legitimate, but if outside of this, are counterproductive and should not be utilised.
What Racist Chris considers to be an “Innocent” is more likely in line with what Al Qada, ISIS, Hamass, Hezbola, Muslim Brotherhood, Boko Haram, Taliban, Al Nusra, Al Shaba deem to be an “innocent” – IOW only their fighters and imams.
A child on London transport, a child spectator at the Boston Marathon, a child in an elementary school in Beslan, a child in Halabja Iraq, a child in a passenger plane, a child attending Bastille Day events in Nice France is NOT an “innocent”.
What are you going on about again? Unlike my own government (which i certainly did not vote for), Israel, the USA, France, Saudi Arabia et al, I don’t issue support to head choppers, rapists or other nutters, among them the IDF. Nice try old bean, but does help to read around.
How are the White Helmets by the way and is it true that the IDF have given them training in how to decapitate persons and mount their heads on a pike – I’m told the IDF are great at this stuff!!!
I support whoever brings Nakba to you and your fellow racists.
is that one of your favourite Indian curry dishes, or an insult to 900,000 Palestinians may i enquire?
900,000 now. Why not just round up.
Is 6 million a rounded-up figure, David, or a guesstimate?
Your comment on the six million says it all
My father lost family in the Holocaust
once it was 700 000
then 750 000
how the numbers climb
And if you repeat a lie often enough it becomes the truth
So, your laughter and blase attitude has stopped has it, Richard? Has someone reacted to Nakba Denial on this blog.
Some sons lost their fathers, homes and their mothers raped when Jewish militia cleared the villages to give the immigrants someone else’s home. There are victims other than Jewish victims, unless David has forbidden that as ‘antisemitic’.
Your commentary on the WHITE HELMETS is so RT TV
It is one of the most plausible propoganda channels I have ever viewed because of the way they present the news
They learnt well from their KGB teachers
Hey all, where’s my girlfriend Leah27z – I’m missing her already?
Maybe she’s posting on mad Jonathan (Scoffie) Hoffman’s Blog, which is a great shame as she contributes greatly to any dialogue on Mr Collier’s Blog.
Come back Leah27z, all’s forgiven. Although, please no heads on pikes unless they are Capitalist heads on pikes, which is acceptable.
Hey Moron, the only “pike” you have is the one up your fat azz.
Shame on you, not only are you xenophobic, you are a sadist and homophobe with it. Where will it all stop I ask myself?
Racist Homophobic Chris,
Are Hamass and Fascist Iran homophobic?
Consider that Hamass executes gays by throwing them off rooftops in gaza
Fascist Iran executes gay teen in Fascist Iran by hanging them from construction cranes?
Tell us Racist Homophobic Chris.
The pikes again with the heads of the dead
So you are calling for the murder of your opponents then
What an unpleasant person you are
“….any stick I can find to beat them with”
Chris you are not a credible contributor, your sticks are imagined and your guises are inconsistent and poorly constructed. Nonetheless you do have value in proving the levels of toleration that are afforded by our host.
The point of the matter is quite simple, what Mr Collier states on this particular Blog post is just nonsense. Indeed, let me remind you, in January he slandered an academic with regards crap on Eugenics. The Professor’s University in question undertook a Review and found no substance whatsoever to Mr Collier’s egregious claims. I wonder if David will offer an apology or correct the public record?
“….any stick I can find to beat them with”
As I indicated above Chris the only value of your presence here is that your comments become visible evidence of the inclusive and tolerant approach of the site as a matter of public record. I think that this will allow readers to draw their own conclusions on who is adopting the most sincere approach and who most definitely is not.
And your contribution is what exactly?
Now, do you think for a moment this old bugger is stupid, for what I’m witnessing is a concerted attack from the MSM & Zionists against the Leader of HM Opposition, the duly elected leader twice I hasten to add.
Now, propaganda is propaganda, you ain’t so good at it, and to be honest neither is Collier. And, each time his egregious accusations are found false, no public apology.
Now, all I’ve seen Mr Collier get correct, although his methods were questionable, was a pro-Palestian FB Group with questionable content on it, content usually removed from other Groups that are far better managed.
Again, these assaults against Corbyn by those opposed to his pro-Palestian stance are bollocks I’m afraid and many in the UK understand this fact.
Still, lets not bore you with the declining power of the MSM acting as a propaganda tool for the UK’s Power Elite, for a majority now despise the MSM as much as they despise careerist politicians troughing at the tax payers expense. Of course, as you don’t reside in the UK or cover these matters all is lost to you. Not lost to me though.
Yada, Yada, Yada.
Happy Nakba you angry racist.
You mean like the fact Scoffie Hoffman is not associated with LAAS, despite being on the Second at LBC claiming he was associated with them, or the fact that you attacked an academic, made egregious charges that were then investigated by her University, which concluded no substance to your attacks.
Or david that you deny Hoffman associates with far Right extremists here in the UK, despite a plethora of photographic evidence, the last taken only a few days ago that proves otherwise.
Or, are we discussing the dwindling power of the MSM to frame narratives, suckh as the Skripal Affair, or alleged chemical weapons attacks by Assad in East Gouta which were false and fallacious, a case of any old lie that the UK public swallow hook, line and sinker – the Polling data suggests otherwise.
So, allegedly, its poppycock is it David?
As far as I am aware, Jonathan is not LAAS. This is what I said, and this is what I stand by. I have little doubt he works alongside them at times (as I think he did with the billboards). I also have had dealings with them (so I know some of the identities behind the group), and was under the impression all of them were Labour members. I do know he communicates closely with them in message streams and so on, but then I have too. There is a tendency on the far -left to build conspiracies and groups everywhere, as if it is all connected. I have 1000’s of contacts, 100’s of regular ones, and dozens of close ones. Many people could say they are associated with me, and indeed I had help on my last report (that led to the ridiculous notion that I am Gnasher). But that is exactly how it works. Gnasher reported they were a man down because they were working on something big. I also posted I was working on something big. Then the report came out. Either Bev or Sally put 2 and 2 together and got 27. Gnasher was a man down because someone from there helped me in my report. In my opening page I thank a Labour activist for their help. See how this happens? People don’t actually stop to think and just make up stuff. Jonathan as far as I know, most certainly does not associate with far right extremists and such people would be in direct opposition to his own political views. If you think Besser is far-right (and I have never spoken to him so am unaware of his current political position) then anyone who ever goes to a demonstration he is on will be smeared by you. Stop with the poppycock. This type of attack just shows how little you have in your locker.
“anyone who ever goes to a demonstration he is on will be smeared by you.”?
Would that be ‘by association’ as Corbyn was by yourself?
Bellamy has already made this point, namely, Collier loves tarring all via highly dubious associations, but when it applies to him its a different matter. However, we know Besser hangs around with Hoffman & Scoffie hangs around with David, so that’s enough evidence for me based on Collier’s own criteria.
That is insincerity and dishonesty right there Chris. Sitting in that post of yours. I don’t use the type of guilt by association others use against me or Hoffman. It is beyond lame. Follow someone around and then when they can catch you in an image that will hurt you – take the shot? Only because there is nothing else in your locker. But then we have to remember you place the views of people who are native born above those of immigrants. So perhaps it isn’t surprising I have trouble with your opinions.
As I’m not a member of Labour the antics of the Twitter Zionist brigade are but of a passing interest, although, far from having little in one’s locker, much exists and from a NEC level. Further, I’ve zero time for Momentum and have cautioned persons not to join a very undemocratic outfit owned by Lansman.
Funny thing is, its the legal-side of the equation where my interest lies, and, LAAS and GnasherJew and the plethora of other witch-hunter Twitter Groups are on some fairly fragile legal ground, particularly with regards IOC data issues – Unite ain’t amused shall we say!
Anyway, as for smearing you, why bother, you have just stated here you know some of those involved in this crass nonsense – it is after all a small world you inhabit, but your choice of ‘Driver’ is to put it mildly questionable.
Again, its you usually doing the smearing, as any objective person setting sights on this Blog would only be too aware of, but facts remain, you smear, make wild accusations and when these are found baseless you don’t retract – which actually undermines your work, which works in the favour of those more concerned in actual BAME issues and combating racism period.
David do you accept that Scoffie associates with Sharon Klaff ?
Do you accept that Corbyn associates with antisemites and holocaust deniers?
Which ones in particular were you referring to, Norm? Names?
Ah Wavy Davy! Dare I say that someone as well informed, intelligent and computer literate as yourself will get the hang of Google one you try it. But what I wanted to know is how do you feel about being the only ‘antiZionist’ on David’s blog who is not earning 50 cents a word to post here?
I think that the prize for running propaganda posters must go to the state of Israel.
It’s noted that you yourself must have missed their latest orders as you are unable to answer my question, no wage for you this week.
Your ignorance is amazing
Hamas , Hezbollah,, Eisen to name a few
They aren’t associates, Dick.
Davy – Corbyns antisemites include – Stephen Sizer, Livingstone, ‘our fiends from Hama and Hizbollah’, Mear One, Gill Kaffash, Sheikh Raed Salah and these are just the ones that spring to mind, just now. Do try to keep up, mate!
I am not remotely concenred about who Corbyn associates with. He can burn in hell for all I care.
Whilst many may come here to seek bile on a left leaning Labour Party, one certain forces detest, among them Zionist one’s, let us not forget historical comparisons and lessons we may glean from events of a generation ago. So, those who think many in the UK are stupid need glance on this excellent piece by Jonathan Cook, which illustrates clearly the lengths elites go to, to destroy certain individuals. Given what’s happening to the leader of the UK’s opposition Party, Cook’s overview of Winnie Mandela is a must read: https://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2018-04-24/winnie-mandela-film-apartheid/
The Laboor Party is self destructing because it has become the Party of racists, terrorists, Islamists, fascist socialists.
“….any stick I can find to beat them with”
This is one of a number of useful contributions that offers a helpful insight into the make up of the social media operator.
In this thread alone we see that Chris has used his array of guises to pivot from Jewish leadership groups in the UK, Israeli Border Control policy, Labour Party politics, obscure UK activists, the murder of Stompie Moeketsi, fringe analytics, academic and professional self validation, and various fabrications of grotesque imagery from his imagination; all evident non-sequiturs showing a lack of focus, genuine interest or sincere concern for any one cause or issue. It indicates a compulsion simply to be here, grab a stick, any stick and flail.
Compare and contrast with Bellers who at least follows a linear path and has put in a shift to enable him to push some core agenda, although this if often lost on most of the civilian, non-activist readership.
Nonetheless both styles provide a very useful record of the way that people chose to attack Jews on social channels and the ingenious justifications that were presented for so doing.
Its most heartening to note you are capable of reading some provided links. Please keep up the good work and you may break your own prejudiced views, such as, do visit the CST website and read some of its published research, you know the research that disputes most of the BS pushed here and in the MSM, the download on anti-semitic sentiments within the population of the UK is well worth a gander.
And, by a strange coincidence, here’s another recently published book that pulls no punches on Zionism and Israel, which I’m confident Collier & Hoffman will do their best to refute, its written by Michael Brenner: https://literaryreview.co.uk/promised-land-or-basket-case
mind you, if the UK ever codify the IHRA 11 examples that the Bored of Deputies expects our nation to adopt, not too sure what word will replace ‘Zionism’ once its banned, never mind any other curtailments on actual academic endeavours. Indeed, many who taught me in Uni will be banned from covering Israel.
I have not read the Brenner book, but what I get from that write up is that there are a great ,any interpretations of Zionism and its successes and failures.
That Zionism is the national liberation movement of the Jews is the only real constant
Zionism is a dynamic and living concept that is not tied to any particular ideology or idea other than that it is the Jewish liberation movement
That it has so many different interpretations is one of its strengths, from being
1) left wing to right wing
2) capitalist or socialist
3) multicultural or monocultural
4) religous or agnostic/atheist
5) indusrial or agricultural
No doubt now in your poisoned mind you will blame Israel for the Christian and Muslim practise of yore of beheading prisoners and placing their heads on pikes
Well Ian David is about to pull out 200 pages attacking Jews on a social channel. If I am attacking Jews I am still in kindergarten
Anyway this, as God is my witness, was a real live conversation.
HIM: If you want to know what Jews think and feel you should ask Jews.
ME: That sounds reasonable. Which Jews?
HIM: Mainstream Jews.
ME: Fine. How will I know a mainstream Jew when I see him/her?
HIM: You will know them because they will think x y and z
Do you believe in a god Bellers?
I have always felt that believing stuff is not a productive use of time. Funnily enough that could almost be a Jewish attitude.
Sorry Bellers. You had presented god as your witness. Just establishing trustworthiness.
What say you Ian . Could an omnipotent God create a round square ?
And don’t say God can’t be impotent coz he banged Mary up.
And your trust or the lack thereof impacts on my life exactly how ?
Easy tiger! Just housekeeping. It was you that invoked an untraceable witness for your evidence. Previously you described something as ‘interesting’ only to admit it was less interesting than a carrot in a rude shape. You’ve got form for this, that’s all.
Ah yes Plato and his theory of forms. The bedrock of the industrial military complex.
Bel…”believing stuff is not a productive” like believing in a ‘Palestinian people’.
See. Norm knows.
“….any stick I can find to beat them with”
Again, lots of sticks, lots of flailing.
You are not a serious contributor here Chris and there is nothing in your posts that suggests you actually care about the subject matter on which you write.
Its a funny old World, but one cares very much about innocent, peaceful Palestinian protesters being murdered and maimed by a repulsive State that then blames said protesters for their own deaths – I mean, Israel is an Occupation Power as defined by the United Nations.
Further, I care very much about actual anti-racist campaigners of the Windrush Generation getting dragged over the coals by privileged, white Zionists, both Jewish and non-Jewish, for having the temerity of questioning why their a lack of BAME representation in certain gatherings.
Of course, with those rather white, privileged individuals yesterday was the Blog host Collier, who allegedly is an anti-racist campaigner.
Do keep up the good work Ian, alas you are losing the plot.
‘One’ may care Chris, but you present no evidence to suggest that you do.
To quote you again, “….any stick I can find to beat them with” and this is how it presents; lots of sticks and lots of swishing around, trying hard to hit something, anything.
Pivoting in the same few lines of a post from Israeli border control, land rights, the UN, Windrush, BAME, our host and the ad homs suggests that you have no legitimate causes, no focus and no sincerity in your concerns. This is not the profile of a serious contributor.
When you stick your nose into British politics as an Israeli who states your family is in danger of being obliterated by alleged anti-semites it becomes very much my business I’m afraid, particularly given the ‘anti-immigration environment’ fostered by your Friends of Israel in both our main political parties – do you remember Ed Miliband’s famous anti-immigrant red mug, which I and my BAME family certainly do, hence why I’m not fingering my keyboard in the UK, but rather Hong Kong.
Now, as I’m a registered voter in the Uk and spend approximately 60 days per annum in my own little country, I think I’m allowed to opine and attack those for spreading malicious anti-semitism charges to close down dialogue, particularly if its aimed at discussing Israel’s numerous breaches of international law in the Occupied Territories.
Now, I’m voting Labour next Thursday in person at our Voting Station in the small town I was born in, in Wales, I do so because we now have a Socialist leader who fights racism wherever its found and who inspire some hope for social justice and assistance to families like mine caught up in the vicious anti immigrant environment fostered by Ms May as both Home Secretary and Prime Minster.
Now, off you go Ian and change some racist policies in Israel, otherwise, just shut your gob and accept the country you live in is a murderous, racist entity that privileges mostly those with white skin, most of whom happen to be Jewish.
Chris….if you live in Hong Kong perhaps you would be better ‘opining and attacking’ China’s human rights record and their ‘numerous breaches of International Law’. But you won’t because … well we know why. I just love it when people who live in countries with human rights records that would disgust and horrify try to tell Israel how they should behave.
Actually we now have a huge amount of self-censorship in HK, alas, our Chinese Masters now ‘disappear’ persons who speak out – still, read the Hong Kong Free Press, many of the Journalists I know – its a small place is HK and the immigrant community is smaller still.
Crazy Chris, a Slave to his Chinese Masters.
When you Kow Tow to your Masters, is it sincere?
Chris, I concede that your last post was less about flailing around with “….any stick I can find to beat them with” and more a form of apologia for absenteeism and a self validation of voting preferences. I also accept that you cannot let any post pass without the inclusion of your full checklist of cluttered references to Israel and Jews. So be it but to aid a more cohesive construct to your future posts I can take as read your references to genocide, occupation, murder of innocents, colonial oppression, heads on spikes, child murder, evisceration of little babies, decapitation of pet dogs and of course the fragrant Natalie Portman.
Additionally please feel free to invoke any degree of personal hostility towards me that your imagination and vocabulary will allow. We are just strangers on social media and it really doesn’t matter.
Unless you happen to be braindead, anyone with two functioning brain cells is fully aware that persons like Collier, the Bored of Deputies and Elite factions in the UK desire to silence Corbyn and remove him as a threat to the status quo. In the BoD’s vocabulary, he’s an enemy because of his expressed support for Palestine, which means Israel is very much central to these faux anti-semitism charges, as its one way to cause maximum electoral harm, close down debate on Palestine and Israeli aggression and, perish the thought, have another permanent Palestinian ally on the UN Security Council.
Again, as far as actual anti-semitic sentiments go in the UK I willingly submit to the conclusion of Research carried by the CST, which ain’t favourable to the Left, but there again, it ain’t favourable to the Right either. And, as a Uk citizen, we shall of cause combat these irrational fears, or indeed hate of our Jewish citizens, as well as racism against anyone who is within the confines of the borders of the United Kingdom – alas, faux anti-semitism charges for political gain must also be eradicated, as, they actually undermine real efforts to stamp our real anti-semitism, which strangely enough, is usually confined to extreme Rightists groups, such as the EDL, Britain First and plethora of other fruit bat groups that detest everyone, apart from themselves of course.
Now, have a good day as I’m catching up on some TV and then listening to George Galloway on TalkRadio. Ain’t life grand?
Life is indeed grand.
Happy Nakba to you and the racist Laboor Party.
Have you ever heard the word politics
It refers to one or many polotical parties competing with each other to win elections
And yes, we do not like Corbyn, we distrust Corbyn and we hope he loses
And many Jews fear a Corbyn win may rekindle the possibility of Jew hate becoming acceptable and main stream
Asking for a friend: is Rogers insane, or just a thick ignorant nasty piece of shit?
You are back, I was worried. Alas, not worried anymore.
May I enquire if you had the honour of holding a sniper rifle and executing civilians in Gaza these past two days. I mean, its you civic duty as a Zionist and Israeli to kill as many Palestinians as possible, particularly those who can’t shoot back.
I’m particularly delighted by the ‘banned’ butterfly bullets you utilise in your sniper rifle, they don’t half cause some major damage to the victims. And then you stop necessary medical supplies entering Gaza to ensure the victims of your lovely butterfly bullets die a most painful death – how compassionate of you. Strange how you offer medical assistance to ISIS terrorists though, but thats another story.
Given these facts, and my own love of killing persons with butterfly bullets from high velocity rifles I wonder if we can marry and emigrate to Israel so I can practice my own killing skills on innocent Palestinian protestors – it would make a wonderful wedding present don’t you think!!!!!!!!
Chris, Instead of writing more garbage abour Leah27z, tell us why do you try to hold Israel to a higher level of behaviour, why is antisemitism the only form of racism you turn a blind eye to and why do you portray the actions of Israel as unique and fundamentally evil. I think I know, but go on, have a bash at enlightening us.
That old chestnut again I note. Well here’s a fact, the UK states its a democracy and in its post-Colonial days managed to kill quite a number of Irish folk demonstrating on Bloody Sunday – the person who led the Para’s at the time, I actually knock around with his brother, alas, we’ve had an enquiry and one of the officers involved was hung out to dry. We’ve had state sponsored assassinations in Gibraltar and many other calumnies, none of which I’d have supported due to Rule of Law issues and International Law issues.
Now, Israel states its a democracy, indeed, allegedly the only one in the Middle East. It also claims the IDF is the most humanitarian killing force globally – strange that. Alas, the nation that’s breached more UN mandates, breached more International laws and standards is Israel.
Now, I also condemn the USA, I also condemn the House of Saud, and will condemn France, all of these for warmongering or hypocrisy.
So, do tell me which standards I hold Israel higher too, given I’ll condemn all who kill innocents that’s not sanctioned by the UN.
Do you have any complaints, or am I bullshiting?
Well that is very nice Chris. Only UN mandated murder is acceptable. Let me tell YOU something – things feel totally different when you have skin in the game!
Nothing against self defence where the response is proportionate to the attack, obviously I’d prefer UN involvement, but I do not oppose the right of Israel to defend itself. Unprovoked attacks though are another matter, which is why I’ve condemned FUKUSA for their recent attacks on Syria – you see, I do apply the same standards, which are both internationalist and inline with my Socialist views. Like you I hope, I detest head choppers, so if Israel wishes to bomb the hell out of ISSI and Army of Islam in Syria you’ll have my support, bomb Assad though, and no support I’m afraid.
If you support Israel’s right to exist that makes you a Zionist!
Israel exists whether I like it or not, its a fact and one I live with. Oh, and every single person living in Israel, particularly if born there, has a right to live there. But so do Palestinian’s. I’d actually prefer if you all stopped killing each other, admit past wrongs, and get on with it. If that makes me a Zionist, well fairs fair, it better than being accused of being a Jew hater or anti-semite. Again, I’m for real peace, not war and not violence and your leaders can sort it out if they have the will.
Chris – “my leaders” The old Jews have ‘split loyalty’ nonsense….nice…
‘split loyalty’, like the ‘split loyalty’ to ones Mother and Father.
The Jews are Loyal.
It’s the socialists, islamofascists, who are DISLOYAL and run over, stab, behead, shoot, rape people within the UK.
Chris – your support for Assad is both disappointing and perverse. I would have thought that killing so many Palestinians in Yarmouk would had changed your mind about that butcher Assad. But they are, of course the ‘wrong sort of Palestinians’ for you – as you can’t exploit the tragedy of these Palestinian deaths to use as a tool to hit Jews over the head with. Clearly your sympathies are with mass murderers – but a Palestinian was shot in Gaza, so lets abuse and condemn British Jews, because that is the ‘principled postition to take’, apparently, because your George Galloway said so………
As a quick aside what countries and movements don#t fit the way you describe the UK, USA, Israel, Saudi, China, Russia…….
Death happens by violence.
In every country
By every people
The west has developed a method of fighting wars that prevents the mass casualties that have occured in past war by battles and subsequent mass starvation and disease
Just try make an intelligable reply rather than an angry rant
Chris, You see, its easy, to be an internet ‘Social Justice Warrior’ safe and secure in your armchair in your Hong Kong apartment listening to the George Galloway on the computer. However, its meaningless – its just words. The real world experience of all of the British Jews on this site has been the slow drip, drip, drip of antisemitism. You have not got a sodding clue. For many of us, our relatives managed to escape being murdered in Eastern Europe, with little more than the clothes they stood up in. The howl of the antisemite has been part of the soundtrack to our lives. How dare you say that I am making it up! How would you like it if a member of your black and minority ethinic (BAME) family you claim to have, was told that the discrimination they experienced in Britain was made up? For the most part people with BAME relatives are more knowledgable and sensitive to racism! You know what – All the lights are flashing on my BS detector now! Well done!!
Funnily enough I had a Shout Out on George Galloway’s TalkRadio Show today, you can catch it shortly on You Tube.
As for the rest of your comment, I’m with you much of the way, Europe’s treatment of Jewish folk has been a stain on Europeans ( UK Colonialism, French, German, Belgian, Dutch, Spanish, even Portugal another huge stain) we let you down badly in the 1930’s & should have tried more to stop the holocaust when the reality was plain for all to see. However, why should the Palestinian’s pay for Europe’s sins, which is where we are I’m afraid.
Please remember, it was the Tories and UK Elites who stopped many German Jews fleeing here from Germany – it was not the Left, and after Kristallnacht the floodgates should have been open, indeed, had we let in Germany’s jewish population, persecuting the war against Germany would have been a lot easier.
Again, why take it out on the Palestinians & yes, Jewish folk have a right to be very bitter about European’s, a bitterness I share.
Little Georgie Gallowsway, the pussycat Lord Haw-Haw of Islamofascist Iran’s PressTV.
Here is Little Georgie dressed in a scarlet leotard, purring, lapping milk, on Celebrity Big Brother.
You are awful!
Crazy Chris, THANKS!
Chris, the thing is we don’t live in some ‘hypothetical world’. There are real people and real lives behind all your SJW posturing. What possible, practical, ‘just’ solution would satisfy both the Arab and Israeli side? You are the smart guy here – lets hear it….
Remember it was the Labour Party that kept the survivors of the Holocaust in DP camps in Cyprus and the old concentration camps of the Nazis for many years after the war
This is just too fucking hilarious…..What a tangled web we weave
Yep I laughed, particularly about the ‘Corbyn Situation’, namely how they think they, that the Bored of Deputies, can rid Labour of Corbyn, who’s support stands at 80% among the rank and file. So, lets put that into perspective, the BoD, which is highly undemocratic, allegedly speaks for all the UK’s Jewish communities, well the rich part at least, but being generous, lets say the BoD talks for 100K Jewish folk, whilst Corbyn’s actual level of real support in a democratic Socialist party is at 480K, never mind Union Affiliates, which would put it over the 600K mark easily.
Here’s the Skwawkbox take on matters & seems the IHRA 11 examples ain’t going to be tolerated, that’s democracy for you and actual Constitutions, which many seem adversely unaware of, among them the author of this Blog : https://skwawkbox.org/2018/04/26/exclusive-full-plp-briefing-document-on-bod-jlc-meeting/
Anything you wish to say to Mrs. May, David?
What is your point Stephen? Of course there are racist Conservatives. That is a given. It is one (of the many) reasons that I -and many other Jews- have never voted for them. But the “whatabout the Tories” is a pathetic argument. It was my understanding and my belief that the Labour party was opposed all forms of racism. This is why it is so disappointing/frustrating/exasperating to discover that anti-Jewish prejudice and hatred exists and is tolerated/accepted within the Labour party.
So you are saying a man who has battled racism his entire adult life, namely Corbyn is a racist, and in the same vein, an actual Windrush Generation BAME anti-racist, Marc Wadsworth is also a racist. Time to get a reality check I’m afraid.
Corbyn fell off the wagon when it comes to fighting anti-semitism within the Laboor Party.
All those years meant nothing to Jeremy.
I said “it is so disappointing/frustrating/exasperating to discover that anti-Jewish prejudice and hatred exists and is tolerated/accepted within the Labour party”.
No mention of Corbyn or Windrush. You genuinely just made shit up and attributed it to me.
Further, are you now saying Labour Party members and those who are humanitarians & opposed to violence should tolerate the murder and maiming of more than 5,500 individuals, be this in the USA or Israel?
No Chris, what I am saying is, that “it is so disappointing/frustrating/exasperating to discover that anti-Jewish prejudice and hatred exists and is tolerated/accepted within the Labour party”.
Peach ?????? I don’t recall asking ” what about the Tories ” or any close variant.
I do love it when the Corbynistas tell us that Labour is just as racist as the Tories. 😉
Actually old bean, CST Research, you know that anti-semitism body funded by the UK government, undermines most of your bollocks, namely, compared to other political groupings, Labour suffers the least racism, or if you like, anti semitism. Of course, as ever this Blog host and the likes of you dispute this research, namely research paid for with tax payers money.
Crazy Chris, the evidence proves otherwise.
Do you suffer from autism or any other disorder that prevents you from checking the CST website and plethora of ‘verified’ Research it hosts. If so, please let me know and I’ll assist, otherwise, you are just a bone idle propagandist unable to make heads or tails of any Research whatsoever. Which is it old bean?
Chris, Here is the reality….https://antisemitism.uk/what-caa-research-really-says-about-the-labour-partys-antisemitism-problem/
Bollocks Norm, the CAA is a political front and the CST has been carrying out its Survey’s and Research annually for years. Try again, next you’ll be saying Mr Collier’s Research is of the highest Academic standards, which it bloody well ain’t because its not bloody peer reviewed.
Chris – Hillarious! You think CAA are a front? Well hardly surprising because you think all the Jews are ‘up to something’ – even though you are not quite sure what. Well, here is what you should do – you phone David Icke again for more info and I will try to repair the fuse on my BS detector that you broke……
We have done a merry dance back to my initial point.
Of course there are racist Conservatives. That is a given. It is one (of the many) reasons that I -and many other Jews- have never voted for them. But the “whatabout the Tories” is a pathetic argument. It was my understanding and my belief that the Labour party was opposed all forms of racism. This is why it is so disappointing/frustrating/exasperating to discover that anti-Jewish prejudice and hatred exists and is tolerated/accepted within the Labour party.
Its my understanding that the British Left is opposed to Racism period, to believe otherwise is a grave mistake. Now, please never construe political criticism or criticism of Israel as any form of racism, it is not. I’m a Leftist and combat racism where it appears and critiques of Zionism – a political creed, or States does not constitute racism full stop.
“But we must also face the uncomfortable fact that a small number of our members and supporters hold anti-Semitic views”.
So are you saying that the above statement made by Jeremy Corbyn in the Evening Standard earlier this week is wrong? Either antisemitism exists in the Labour party or Jeremy Corbyn is being duplicitous.
No Peach, one has not stated that, there are indeed persons who hold anti-semitic sentiments who are members of the Labour Party and its clearly identified in CST Research published last September, which i have heavily endorsed on Mr Collier’s site. Alas, such sentiments are far lower within the Left strata than the right and the CST is making said observations, based on annual research, not me. I’ve linked into it many times on these threads, but for good, solid Research undertaken by professionals, its the in place to go – their Research is valid in Universities, so is valid by me.
“their Research is valid in Universities, so is valid by me” – breathtaking stupidity.
“the British Left is opposed to Racism period” – breathtaking ignorance.
Crazy Chris said,
“Its my understanding that the British Left is opposed to Racism period”
EXCEPT when the Racists are “People of Color”.
No, plenty of white leftists are deeply racist.
i think ‘Peach’ mistook me for you, Stephen …. somehow. Aaaah, you’re on her mind …. sweet.
Have you got to the holding hands stage yet with Peach – it takes a long time, but me and Leah27z are now holding hands. Indeed, I’ve proposed marriage, as you can see in a few posts above.
Nope, Chris, for all we know ‘Peach” is some unshaven conscript in a Tel Aviv typing pool playing with his ringlet curls between posts. Can’t be too careless.
Davy, you are utter scum. Fuck off.
More swivel-eyed crap from the creep Rogers.
Stephen. Question was in response to Davy’s comment. Hope I didn’t cause you too much bother.
Oh its ok I never had a bothersome day I didn’t survive
Just a few observations on comment you have made elsewhere
Well well Stephen
You certainly seem to know the Jewish community and how it works.
Firstly address to something you said; who elected Mark Gardiner,which you called a ‘scam operation’.
So lets see who elected the chief of the British Army
So lets see who elected the chief executive of any NHS Trust.
So lets see who elected the head of the Bank of England.
So who elected the head of MI5
I could go on, but it is unnecesary.
All of these are normally nominated positions requiring certain abilities that will enable the holders to enhance and effectively operate the organisations they run.
That you fail to recognise this salient point about an organisation that has helped prevent attrocities against Jewish communal organisations as has happened in various parts of Europe and the Americas ans Asia
exposes an unhealthy bias against the main stream Jewish community.
Secondly where do you get all this information about how the Jewish community operates and regulates itself.
Do you have spies all over sending you special reports on the doings of all these ‘neferious’ Jews in their secret haunts practising their weird rituals etc.
Would really love to know how this Cabal of Jews is so well understood by you.
Lastly let us look at JEWDAS.
I look at it as mostly a group of disaffected young Jews who are still unsure whether they want to remain or leave or leave their birthright/communities
Arkushes reaction was a bit intemperate, but has mostly been forgotten as a piece of stupidity; except of course by individuals and people like you that would I feel , love to sow discord within the community.
Looking back at the JEWDAS Seder, I think that it was played as a prank that was done to garner publicity and garner discord, but in the end served to unite the Jewish community as it was seen as an attack on tradition and Jewish custom.
You seem inordinately interested in the goings on in the Jewish community.
Many Jews and non-Jews also have this interest, but since I have encountered you on blogs my whiskers have been teased as to whether you are Jewish or not.
Would really love to know, but by previous encounters doubt whether you are capable of answering questions of any type (basketcases, dependancy, libelous allegations etc)
Richard – The dodgy duo Chris and Stephen seem to me to have an inordinate amount of information about Jewish Community politics and pro-Israel activism (and activists). Far more than your ‘casual’ Jew hater. Remember, the pro-Palestine, antiZionist/ antiSemitic cause is well financed and well organised. And I suspect that Electronic Intifada have a dart board with Mr Collier’s face on it!!! Its no accident that they are here, in my opinion….. I’m off to repair my BullS**t Detector – it looks like we are going to need it!!!
You do give me far too much credit, alas, I have certain sources cultivated over the years, something to do with work undertaken by me over 20 years. Alas, I’ve never got money from anyone apart from what I’ve actually earned I’m afraid, still, I’m open to all these funding avenues you’ve mentioned if you can link me in.
As for your BS Detector, mine screeches each time persons like you comment, but its highly sensitive.
Anyhow, you seem opposed with persons sharing legitimate information that any Researcher should be able to glean from the Internet, or even past University Libraries – which, I’m allowed to use as a former Graduate or Post Graduate, which is helpful, but unlike Collier, London has a plethora of outlets that just don’t exist in Middle England, Cardiff or here in HK.
As for the Jew Hater crap, what a laugh. Alas, i hang out with jewish folk who are solidly on the Left and anybody else, if its political, is fair game I’m afraid.
Chris – the old ‘I can’t be antisemitic some of my best friends are Jewish’ excuse…nice.
I’m a Leftist, do you think I fucking fraternise with my Class enemy. I care buggerall if someones Jewish, Arab, Yank, Catholic or whatever else, if they are Rightists, be it Blairites, Tories, LibDems or on the extreme the extreme Right, they are my enemy. I suppose taking exception to Howard when leader of the Tory Party, despite him being Jewish & Welsh, is not allowed, its anti-semitic is it. Fuck off mate, I detest Tories and eat the buggers for breakfast, same applies to Blairites and Bitterites in the Labour Movement.
Leftist = Racist Socialist.
After all the nazis, AKA national SOCIALISTS, were SOCIALISTS and National SOCIALIST shitler and Soviet SOCIALIST Stalin were all SOCIALISTS.
You are a complete and utter low life fool – you come on this board and equate Rightist German National Socialism with actual communitarian Socialism that emerged out of the French Revolution. What a disgusting propagandist you truly are. Not only that, an absolute coward too fearful to put their own name to their own posts.
The Nazis were of the left, fuckwit Chris.
No Chris, You Fuck off. You are a jew hater pretending to be a ‘leftist’.
Norm, you do realise that the 2 things are not mutually exclusive, yes?
So true Leah. Indeed, it appears that you cannot be on the hard left without also being a Jew hating scumbag.
“I detest Tories and eat the buggers for breakfast” – you are insane, as simple as that.
Crazy Chris eats BOOGERS for breakfast.
And that’s SNOT a joke.
I answered you elsewhere Richard
The proverbial friends thart are ‘jewsl
You once said you knew some Jews, now they are your friends
Well well, where have I heard that one before
These Jews, are they your ‘best friends’ then
Didn’t know that Jews could have non-Jews as best friends.
There is a lot you don’t know, pondscum.
I didn’t know that Socialists could have Fascists as best friends.
See the Stalin/SHlTler pact of 1939.
Can’t show you the Shamir would be pact with Hitler to attack the British in Palestine because Hitler gave him the finger.
Do you have issues with non-Jewish folks associating with Jewish folks, I mean, does it make you feel uncomfortable?
On my little Island we have maybe a dozen or so Jewish folk, one woman was married to a mate of mine, they divorced but she and the kids still live on the Island. Another couple of Jewish folks I know are brothers, both Londoners, neither are religious or strike you as Jewish, one’s a painter & decorator, the other one keeps getting into all sorts of financial trouble with investments in bars in Asia, his last big escapade was in Makati in Manila – I got pissed and stoned with them often.
Oh, and my first business partner in Hong Kong was Jewish, I attended his wedding and he attended mine.
Now, fuck off as you do seem quite the racist to me Mr Galber.
Racist Chris, Please take you own advice and ESAD like a good little fascist socialist pig.
Serious question Chris, honestly. Do you ever challenge your own self definitions? As a stranger to you this has nothing to do with me and this is hardly the place for genuine personal feelings. This is far too likely to expose weakness but assume I’m sincere in my question. Do you not find that a rigid position makes things very frustrating when you see or hear something that ought to be counter intuitive but actually peeks your interest.
As a show of good faith I will break character for a moment to extend the question. I am a vicious ultra right wing cut throat but loath the rigid convention of 21st century politics that prevents my political representatives from sitting down with left wing opponents, often crusaders for social justice some of whom i have learnt to admire and form collaborative policy for all of the electorate. Pipe dreams at present but an acknowledgement that it is often possible to see some shred of value in the view of your most avowed political opponent. Have you ever felt this way about things?
It must be most difficult for you to understand what an actual working class community is, how close knit they once were and how collaborative they were, and in many respects, still are.
Having become politically aware before attaining 10 years of age – I remember Brain Walden on HTV Wales (ITV) to give you an idea of how old I am, never mind Peter Jay, by 17 I was a labour Party member and Union Organiser at 18.
Again, you dislike facts, me, don’t care, have bugger all to hide, proud of my background and proud to be on the Left. And, Rightwing buggers like the mob on here I’ve heard it all from previously, hence i have thick skin and insults roll off me like water off a ducks back.
Keep it up, but one won’t be silenced and to save the likes of Collier, GnasherJew & LAAS tracking me, I’ll just post here – keeps life simple don’t it!
Yes but none of that relates to my question. I’m not challenging you in any way. People rarely change minds on social media and certainly not those of activists. I was simply asking whether, like me, you had ever challenged your own views or seen something, an idea or a position of your opponents that made you think about things in a different way. I’m not trying to trick you in any way. Just bored of the usual shtick here and thought I’d ask a proper question.
Got wrong end of stick I’m afraid.
In answer to your question, do I change my opinion, or biases?
In sum, yes, and here I’ll just quote JM Keynes: “When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do Sir?”
And as evidence, Mr Collier’s Research found actual anti-semitic content/posts on the Palestinian Lives FB Group, these posts, essentially empirical evidence, could not be disputed as they were fact, so, I had to change my tune, to do otherwise would be reckless.
As for my political beliefs, they were formed young and reinforced at University, reinforced by being taught by some good Lecturers & Professors, many of whom were Conservatives – was not keen on Marx though, but found Veblen intriguing.
What do I do? I try to think about getting things done in a very different way; a way that moves beyond over-simplistic definitions and rigid playbooks. If you bother to look hard enough and listen to what everyone is saying with an open(ish) mind there are things of interest and value to be found even from the unlikeliest sources.
Clearly places like this are not the ones to express these sorts of opinions as honesty and sincerity are far removed from the accepted tactics of the activist community, so I expect normal service to resume fairly soon.
It just gets really boring watching the game being played here day after day. Fair play to you lot for having the patience to keep it going ad nauseam.
We are always allowed to move off this forum, I am on Facebook &, I have no issues with you personally, or, with Jewish folk living in Israel, however it came around, you chaps are their & its wrong for me or anyone else, including Arabs, to discuss removal, obliteration or other unsavoury outcomes.
I’ve stated previously, I desire peace in the Holy Lands and, will humbly join hands with you if this could be achieved where Israeli’s and Palestinians are satisfied.
Up to you mate, but I’m easy to find on Facebook and we can discuss rationally. I’m a real keen learner and this stuff fascinates me – it certainly did at University.
I can even introduce you to Richard Cohen, who’ll confirm I was as mad as a hatter then as now.
Humbly? You are an arrogant ignorant creep with zero humility.
Where are we going for our Honeymoon?
I was thinking about either Yemen or Libya, don’t think its a good idea to get married in Yemen though as you have a tendency to be bombed by a FUKUS supplied munition – if only they’d drop butterfly bullets we’d be fine – don’t forget to pack our Tavor X95’s though, and a couple of sniper rifles if they’ll fit in our luggage.
Dream on, pondscum.
Quick enquiry, are you formerly of the University of Leeds?
If yes, I know who you are if ‘Wand’ rings any bells.
The temper tantrums and the bad language
Not very becoming is it
I’m somewhat concerned that a Blog post has not appeared about Marc Wadsworth & how this builds in to your anti-semitism crisis within the Labour Party – I trust we’ll see a May day post on this issue very soon as worried we don’t have enough anti-cornyn material to comment upon.
Chris, David’s probably sobering up from the resulting ‘Friends of Israel’ MPs celebration for the party within the party as they see another nail in the coffin of a Jerermy Corbyn led Labour Party. Can’t understand how friends of that law-flouting state are still tolerated while Marc has been sacrificed.
More unhinged nonsense from the pathetic troll Davy.
I don’t believe a Pond is a good place to spend our Honeymoon together, unless you are referring to waters off Israel, in which case we can stay in a small floating palace equipped with Palestinian fishing boat killing missiles – imagine the spectacle of a fireworks display having killed these terrorist fishermen with our latest tech missiles. Indeed, if there are any survivors we can unpack our sniper rifles and pluck them off one by one all in the comfort of our armchairs.
I must warn you though I suffer greatly from sea sickness, as such, we may need to pack a few decapitated Palestinian heads – the ones we march around with on pikes, and utilise them as spittoons, with mouths agape as I vomit my bile into them – all in the honour of Israel. Our wedding and honeymoon photo album will be full of fond memories & death and what’s a few dead Palestinians among friends I say!!!!!!
Its quite simple, don’t support the maiming & murder of Palestinian’s – if you support murder, then what’s I’ve written comes into play, obviously, if your are opposed to sarcasm and irony, not my fault. Alas, this old bugger mourns when innocents are murdered, i don’t video it on my smartphone and yelp with cries of delight, the IDF does though!
Your Apocalyse Now dreams &/or fantasies are impinging on your version of reality and the result is sick and scary. If you think that the above is any way to communicate even ironically or sarcastically, it might not be your fault but you do have a problem.
Over and out.
I think your comment went over the head of Leah27z, who’s notions of reality differ remarkably from your average Joe – still, she’s an ardent Zionist and Israeli apologist, so I’d expect little different from her warped sense of self import.
I see you have attracted the attention of the rancid nut job Saul Freeman Chris o:)
Please don’t tell me Leah27z is Saul Freeman, I always thought Leah was a female. I’ve nothing against homosexuality, but as a married man my wife may be annoyed if I married a man. And you don’t want to upset my wife.
Anyhow, I’m quacking in my Crockett & Jones boots at the thought of Saul taking an interest in little ole me!
I have to confess is on my most entertaining twitter reads
Saul that is o:)
Chris, just so you, and anyone else interested, know what was said to ‘Friend of Israel’ Smeeth before her Oscar winning exit stage left.
27 April at 22:38 ·
Today a longstanding Black anti-racist campaigner, Marc Wadsworth, was expelled from the Labour Party. I was dismayed but not surprised at the outcome. It was a grave injustice in an atmosphere of “guilty until proved innocent”. He was expelled by a catch-all rule that it is very easy to fall foul of, though in my view his main accuser has a much bigger case to answer on that score.
I was proud to be one of the witnesses Marc called to try to prevent this injustice, and I was motivated to do so above all, because I detest dishonesty and manipulation.
I was present at the event (the launch of the Chakrabarti Report) where the key incident on which the case hung occurred. I know exactly what I saw and what I heard. I will quote from my witness statement just to clear up any confusion people may have should they read newspaper reports of the incident and any misplaced belief that any question of antisemitism was present. After that I will make some comments about other players in this farce.
After Shami Chakrabarti and Jeremy Corbyn spoke…
“Shami Chakrabarti invited members of the press… to ask questions… not one of them asked about the report itself, or about antisemitism. Instead they abused the privilege of being invited to ask questions by pressing Jeremy Corbyn about extraneous Labour leadership issues, and allegations about Momentum and ‘Trotskyists’.
The tone was set by a Daily Telegraph reporter (Kate McCann) who referred to someone present who had been handing out Momentum leaflets before the formal event began. I never saw these leaflets. As the exchanges became more tetchy… it became apparent that the leaflet incident…concerned … Marc Wadsworth, who was standing just behind where I was sitting…
Wadsworth made a remark about the Daily Telegraph journalist, whom he said had passed a press release to Labour MP Ruth Smeeth before the meeting. In the meeting Smeeth was sitting not far from the Telegraph journalist (and in clear view of myself). Wadsworth added: “We can see who is working hand in hand.”
This comment was unremarkable given the state of conflict within the Labour Party after a significant section of the Parliamentary Labour Party refused to accept the democratic vote by party members that Jeremy Corbyn should be party leader. Throughout this period, his opponents, including Labour MPs, were briefing against him, their comments frequently appearing in the right wing anti-Labour press such as the Daily Telegraph, The Times, Daily Mail and Daily Express.
Smeeth… looked alarmed by Wadsworth’s comments, and said, ‘How dare you?’ The audience turned towards her and Wadsworth, irritated that a private argument was distracting from the the launch of an important report. Smeeth stood up and calmly walked out, followed soon afterwards by Kate McCann, the Daily Telegraph reporter.
Further irrelevant questions from the press corps followed until Rabbi Abraham Pinter… asked to speak. He admonished the press for their disgraceful lack of interest in antisemitism and the Report that was being launched. Shami Chakrabarti welcomed his comments… and closed the proceedings. Jeremy Corbyn and Rabbi Pinter greeted each other warmly. People calmly left the room.
I was absolutely astonished to hear and read news reports just hours after this event… which claimed that Ruth Smeeth MP had walked out of the event in tears and that there had been an antisemitic incident at the launch of the report from the Labour Party’s inquiry into antisemitism. I had not witnessed any such incident and she did not walk out in tears.
… later that day I saw that Ruth Smeeth MP had published tweets claiming that she had been a ‘victim of traditional antisemitic slurs’, and subjected to ‘vile conspiracy theories about the Jewish people’. This is a travesty. It simply had not happened. None of the Jewish people who attended, that I subsequently discussed it with, heard any words that could be construed as antisemitic…
Smeeth tweeted that the Labour Party was ‘no longer safe for Jews’, an unjustified slur not only on the Labour leadership but on all non-Jews in the party. It is the kind of comment that brings the party into disrepute.”
There is video evidence that was shown during the hearing which shows unmistakeably that Ruth Smeeth was lying about the words she attributed to Marc Wadsworth.
The very worst you could say about Wadsworth’s behaviour is that it wasn’t very sensitive to the event and, as I said, people were a bit irritated by the sideshow, but how does a bit of insensitivity compare with telling outright lies and making unwarranted slurs against Labour members up and down the country? Which is worse? I think the answer is obvious, but she seems to be strictly protected. Have I seen worse behaviour at ward/GC meetings? Much worse.
Of course once you know someone tells brazen lies it is hard to believe anything else they say. Ruth Smeeth says she has received 25,000 abusive antisemitic tweets/messages. That may be the case. At every opportunity I have seen her write about them she tries to attribute them to Corbyn supporting Labour/Momentum members. And yet the Labour Party confirmed the other day it has 90 outstanding complaints of antisemitism against members to investigate. I’m not great at maths but this doesn’t add up. Will Ruth Smeeth ever tell us how many *Labour Party members* she has reported for antisemitic abuse?
In recent weeks people who regard themselves as “leaders” and “spokespersons” for the Jewish community have been calling for the full implementation of the Chakrabarti report. Let’s remind ourselves that these are the same people who at the time were castigating the report, being extremely insulting and borderline racist towards Shami Chakrabarti.
If only Iain McNicol had not spent a year and a half blocking it – because one of its key recommendations is to prioritise education to deal with complaints and only use disciplinary measure such as suspensions and exclusions as a last resort
A final comment about my interactions when I was called in to answer questions about my evidence. I was asked to accept that if a Jewish person perceives an action against them as antisemitic then it is. I said this was a misreading of the MacPherson principle which is when someone feels they have been victim of a racist incident, then you acknowledge it and listen respectfully to what happened. But that is only half the story. You then try to marry that with objective evidence and witness evidence. As a further example I referred to the CST who are recognised for collecting statistics on antisemitic incidents. I explained that in their last report (for 2017) they recorded more than 1,300 incidents but rejected several hundred more because although the victims perceived them as antisemitic incidents, CST could not prove antisemitic motivation.
They then suggested to me that the comments about Smeeth and a newspaper “working hand in hand” were an antisemitic trope because Smeeth was Jewish. I retorted that I was familiar with the Jews and media trope especially from my book about antisemitism in Britain in the 1930s, but the trope was about *control* of the media not collusion or cooperation with it. I added that in the 1930s the only paper antisemites could prove Jewish control over was the Jewish chronicle. I talked about the known collusion between Labour right wingers ,opposed to the leadership, and the right wing press they kept getting quoted in. That was said about several MPs, a small number of them Jewish. The accusation doesn’t suddenly become an antisemitic one when a Jew is accused of working with them. That was the “quality” of the arguments on which they found Wadsworth guilty. It was a disgrace and to be honest I resent my membership money funding this charade.
For the many not the black
I think you’ve been outed.
What goes with Saul on Twitter, I mean he asks for original twitter posts, which I’m happy to give him, but each time try to post to his account I’m Blocked from doing so – he’s got a lot of extremely Rightwing followers has Saul – he’s better off coming here I’m afraid to say, which is where most of my social media action now occurs, well, apart from helping Marc, and thus far we’ve raised £25K.
Forgot to say, many thanks for the link, having great fun with it.
Narcissus, We will be having some great fun too – at your expense.
The company you keep is telling, not only do you chaps run around with Far Right Extremists here in the UK and Europe, you have stalkers among your midsts too. And I’m supposed to be worried,, for what exactly, opposing WAR.
Crazy Chris, the MOST Far Right Extremists are in Gazastan
– Hamass which executes gays by throwing them off rooftops
– executes opponents and drags their body behind motorcycles, through the streets of Gazastan.
Crazy Chris, you are a Far Right Extremist Fascist Socialist – just like your heroes.
Actually old bean, somewhat confused, my Twitter Account is ‘Open’ and always has been and, as on this site, I post under my true identity, so anyone can go visit and view. So, what’s the NEWS mate, or are you so stupid like the COWARD Saul Freeman who’s afraid to post on Twitter under his true, racist identity?
Bellamy gets a mention too.Referred to as “ that notorious antisemite “ Oh dear.
Yeah Harv. Notorious. How exciting is that. Saul is lucky I am not of a litigious disposition and don’t give a flying fuck what the nut job thinks or says. As mentioned above Saul is on my most entertaining must read twitter feed lists.
And Harv do leave thinking to those of us with an aptitude for it.
Oh, that Nazi is Saul, had not realised that fact Stephen – he’s got a nice thread going about me, seems he don’t like Leftists, much as I don’t like Nazis and those who kill innocents. Its a tough world, but fundraising for Wadsworth going well – shame my social media circle is so small.
Racist Chris, Your narcissism will be the end of you.
Happy Nakba, you fascist pig!
I realise that just like Fishguard’s Mayor Kenny Twat, you are an actual twat – you must be related. However, not liking Mega-Corporations, not liking Imperialism and Colonialism, not revelling in wanton warfare and warmongers, somehow actually makes me as far off fascism as one can get – indeed, whilst being Welsh, expressing an ardent Welsh nationalism is beyond me.
Now, since when has someone opposed to War, pro-environment and basically anti-capitalist ever been a fascist. I mean, the racism at the heart of Zionism is far more fascistic than my own philosophical and moral beliefs. Indeed, as stated previously, at the end of the day I very much like democratic syndicalism, which allegedly in your warped vocabulary has metamorphosed into a political philosophy & theory I have zero to do with.
Is it because I’m not in love with Zionism and offer criticism of the Israeli state that annoys you, or is it being a decent human being opposed to the murder and maiming of 1000’s that pisses you off?
Crazy Chris, Arabs/Muslims excel in maiming hundreds of thousands of Arabs/Muslims – and others.
Your feeble attempt to project Arab/Muslim depravity on Israelis/Jews is laughable.
“U.N. approves cease-fire in Syria after week’s death toll passes 500”
500? …. slightly less that the number of children killed by Israel during its latest invasion of Gaza.
So that’s Syria bad(Arab/Muslim depravity?).. and .. Israel bad(Jewish depravity?)?
Dumb Davy, That’s Arabs/Muslims killing 500 Arabs/Muislims.
How can there ever be Peace with Infidels when Arabs/Muslims can’t get along with Arabs/Muslims?
I suppose the UN figures given for murders and maiming of unarmed civilian protestors is also a ‘conspiracy’ no doubt and that the figures quoted are a lie – typical crap from those with blood on their hands.
The UN announced that 500,000 people have died in Syria.
Syria. Far Right Extremist Syria.
Why Crazy Chris supports Far Right Extremist Arabs/Muslims is a puzzlement.
Dumb Bellamy, Remember how litigious david irving ended up.
You can end up like him too.
Interestingly David declares that he and Harv share ” many perspectives.” Hopefully not Harv’s perspective that brown skinned folks should ” get out of our country”
You mean Harvey, like Ruth Smith and Maureen Lipman is a recidivist liar. And I know who he is now – does not seem to be on Twitter, so evidently, like here, he uses a fake identity. Good to know who all the Nutters are, and there do seem to be many indeed.
So, Harvey’s stuck on Ms Swords, even wants to walk down the aisle with her.
Harvey sounds like a Stalker, whilst I have Saul Freeman stalking me now – very strong folk these ardent Zionists are, that, and they have no shame – Scoffie’s a classic example of this fact.
Crazy Chris, A Narcissist like you wants Stalkers.
It makes you feel important, wanted – and not the lonely asshole you deep down know you are.
Why not go for it . Put up or shut up as they say in 5 card stud. You can always join Greenstein’s crowd funding effort against CAA . That had us laughing in the aisles .
“500? …. slightly less that the number of children killed by Israel during its latest invasion of Gaza”
Noting the tone and substance of your posts here ‘Davy’ it is evident that addressing these points with you directly is a redundant exercise. So it will suffice to offer readers some contextual additions in order to keep your propagandist message balanced.
The Jewish State will always take a very dim view when our teenage students are kidnapped and murdered by Arab terrorists. We will react forcefully when approximately 9,850 rockets are fired on our civilian communities by Arab terrorists beyond our borders. We will respond aggressively when Arab terrorists dig tunnels under our border with aid funding from your government and with the aim of murdering our civilian population. We will target the arsenals of munitions stored in civilian houses in which women and children reside; munitions launched through the retractable panels of flat roof spaces of those houses and around which the terrorists routinely line the residents to inhibit our airstrikes. We will enter their territory when necessary to neutralize the ongoing threats that the terrorists pose to the safety and security of our sovereign nation and will withdraw immediately upon achieving our objectives. We will defend our border from those that would approach it with malicious intent and will continue to do so robustly and decisively.
There will always be collateral damage, of this there can be no doubt. We will always aim to minimise this within the protocols of conflict but never at the expense of our own civilian population or the safety and security of our country. We will never offer a single word of apology when we exercise the sovereign right to defend ourselves against an enemy that vows to work towards our complete destruction and assure any opponent of this course of action, that this is entirely their problem.
Now, back to the name calling and social media posturing………
Ian I am sure the ” readers” very much appreciate your dirty stories
This reader very much appreciates stories about dirty islamofascist terrorists getting their just reward.
How about dwarf Jewish terrorists getting their just rewards., which certainly wasn’t being elected as Israeli PM….. several times.
Looks like Garfeild (Harvey) and Scoffie Hoffman are related – had to laugh when I re-read Greenstein’s take down of Zionists with links to UK Far Right extremists: http://azvsas.blogspot.hk/2017/12/exclusive-we-name-gang-of-31-zionists.html
Most of the buggers are posting here, but God knows who Leah27z is?
Which UK Far Right extremists?
Supporters of Hezbolah, Hamass, Muslim Brotherhood, Taliban, Boko Haram?
One or all of ’em?
If Hamass executing gays and Fascistg Iran executing gays isn’t Far Right, then what are they? “Progressive”?
Fascist Chris, you are so stupid.
Oh really, them please instruct why Israel gives assistance to ISIS/The Army of Islam, whilst Syria, Iran, Hezbollah and Russia kill the buggers?
Please remember Priti Patel, forced to resign after visiting an Israeli field hospital that treats terrorists. Funny old world Edward.
Fascist Chris, Because Israel treats the injured, while you and your fascist pals behead captives, throw people off rooftops, executes captives, hijacks passenger planes and fly into buildings, bomb marathons, bomb music venues.
Happy Nakba Fascist Chris Rogers!
Edward, the only fascists I’m ware of, are the Rightwing European extremists you Zionists seem to embrace with relish. Again, when you grow a fucking brain, have some basic under standing of philosophy and political theory, reinforced with a decent historical perspective, come and have a chat, until then, we know who you are, who you hang out with and what you stand for, which ain’t an egalitarian society, unless egalitarians just applies to a bunch of racist Zionists who bring shame to many globally.
LOL! You aren’t aware of the islamofascists who fly the swastika below their “palestinian” flag?
You aren’t aware of the nazi salutes performed by islamofascists?
Google Images “arab nazi salute”
You arene’t aware of Socialist Shitler meeting with Islamofascist Grand Mufti of Jerusalem?
Let me open your beady eyes, you knuckle dragging fascist troglodyte.
Your obsession with portraying the Left as fascist is quite telling, your ignorance plumbs new depths, but your obsession itself is indicative that it is you, you Sir who’s the fascist, a fascist of a particularly disgusting form, a virtual NAZI in fact. Remind us again about that Italian Fascist Jew who informs post-War Zionism?
You guys have real form.
Socialism is the foundation of Fascism.
Ever hear of National SOCIALISM you ignorant sack of SHlTler?
Ever hear of the National SOCIALIST and Soviet SOCIALSIM non-aggression, non-compete pact of 1939?
I reject Socialism, while you embrace it, “comrade”.
Did you vote for Trump in 2016, or was Killery you choice of murderer?
Just asking, but no wonder you have difficulties in understanding fascism, and your knowledge of Socialism is that of a New Democrat, essentially empty shall I say.
Crazy Chris, As a matter of fact, I DID VOTE for Donald J. Trump for President of the United States of America.
President Trump leads and Europe follows.
Crazy Chris, Have “progressive”, Laboor heads hung out with terrorist Hezbola supporters?
Hint: Ask Jeremy Corbyn.
Glad you shared with this forum the fact you voted for a racist bigot, although it was either that or a wanton warmonger – so a limited choice of murders I’m afraid.
Crazy Chris, I would never vote for a racist bigot. That’s why if I lived in the UK I would NEVER vote for any candidate from the racist bigoted Laboor Party or racist bigots Jeremy Corbyn or George Gallowsway.
Also hung out with the IRA, resulting in a ceasefire and cessation of carnage. If only Israel had the wit, and not the belligerence and stubborness, to seek and negotiate peace.
Little Davy, First you’ll have to get Arabs/Muslims to agree to put down their guns, bombs, to stop stabbing, ramming fellow Arabs/Muslims.
When Arabs/Muslims can’t even get along with fellow Arabs/Muslims, how they ever get along with Infidels???
So, if the Arabs/Muslims agree to put down their guns, stop the stabbings on Israelis, while Israel puts down its guns, grounds its fighters, clears its settlements and lifts its blockade and pulls its soldiers off Palestinian land, yes, there could be peace. You’re learning.
Dumb Davy, Arabs/Muslims can’t even get along with Arabs/Muslims,
so how can any sane person expect Arabs/Muslims to get along with INFIDELS/Buddhists/Christians/Hindus/Jews/Atheists/Pagans?
Plus Arabs/Muslims murder people in Europe, US, Asia and the Middle East, passenger planes, passenger ships.
The First World needs to rein in the savage, primitive socialist Third World.
Firstly, the murder of the Jewish teenagers wasn’t the spark for the 2014 invasion. It was in retaliation for the shooting of two Palestinian teenagers on Nakba Day of that year by an Israeli border policeman. He had been told not to use live fire, but disobeyed. He later admitted on being charged that he had indeed used live fire.
Remember that a Palestinian teenager was abducted by a Jewish settler, Ben David, and two accomplices and was burned alive by the three. With typical Israeli on Arab justice speed it was almost two years before the trio were found guilty of his murder and sentenced. It’s amazing that Leibermann and the entire state didn’t bay for the three to be pardoned and released.
When the teenagers were abducted and murdered the Israeli authorities did a sweep of Hamas(who they blamed) supporters in the West Bank.Many were killed by the IDF.The couple suspected of murdering the Jewish youths were cornered and gunned down in a surrounded house. Note that there was no lengthy trial in that instance.
The death of the many Hamas supporters resulted in a launch of the usual tube rockets towards Israel.
The last time that a tunnel was used to infiltrate Israel the attack was not against civilians but against soldiers of the IDF. The British government does not fund the building of these tunnels. In fact they appease Israel’s blatant flouting of humanitarian laws and sells that state military supplies.
Defending a border, of course. Shooting dead those that approach it is butchery. Should we, when your settlers are murdered by those protecting THEIR country, have a similar blase attitude to death as also saying that it is entirely their own problem?
“Should we, when your settlers are murdered by those protecting THEIR country, have a similar blase attitude to death as also saying that it is entirely their own problem?”
Interesting. What was your reaction? Did you condemn the murders? More importantly, how did Hamas / the Palestinian leadership react?
Thanks in advance
‘Peach’, of course it’s to be condemned when civilians are murdered whether they be Arabs or Jews.
Remember Ian’s words …”We will never offer a single word of apology when we exercise the sovereign right to defend ourselves against an enemy that vows to work towards our complete destruction and assure any opponent of this course of action, that this is entirely their problem. ”
Should Palestinians apologize when they also defend against an enemy that seeks to deny them their state, akin to destroying one?
I’ve no doubt that the Arab reaction was no different to the reactions of Israelis when civilians are shot dead on their own land by those that guffaw and whoop.
I have had three tries at writing a response that answers your question and reveals how you haven’t answered mine and I just can’t see the point. Your response to Ian below is so revealing as to override any possible benefit of continuing this conversation.
Instead I would suggest that you consider what you are afraid of, given the following: “Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” I can see the anger, the hatred and the potential for suffering. If you can identify the fear, it might not be too late to turn away from the dark side.
Best of luck
Ideas there for this weeks 6th Form essay, ‘Peach’.
Not ISIS Chris, Syrian Druze women and children from the villages around Quneitra border area caught up in the fighting and chronically starved of medical supplies as the civil conflict has unfolded. Many of these people are family members of the Israeli Druze that chose to remain in Israel as Israelis after 1973. They contribute a huge amount to national life as citizens with complete equality and occupy some of the highest positions in the judiciary, the police and the army. We acknowledge the contribution of their community and the sacrifices that they continue to make in the IDF and make every effort to help their families and other innocent civilians that are helpless on the other side of the fence.
I have no interest in the individuals from any point on the UK political landscape but for balance the readers should be reminded of this; that the MP you mentioned was shown some of the most gruesome civilian casualties of the Syrian conflict and the efforts that we alone were taking to make their lives better; some of the most vulnerable people in the region. She met the search and rescue teams from the IAF and heard how they put their own lives in danger to help these victims when the US, the Russians, the UN or your own government did not want to know. She wanted to see a greater contribution from her aid budget being directed to this task and paid the price for her naivety. That the civilian casualties of civil war are trotted out as political collateral here on social channels to score easy propaganda points is only a sad mirror of the way they are demeaned by the international community. But as Bellers likes to say from the total safety of his keyboard “c’est la guerre”.
Speaking of the safety of the keyboard……
Did you serve Ian ?
A very insignificant contribution compared to your own Bellers.
I am sure
Thanks for balancing out the narrative.
I shall give Ian credit where credit is due, he does bring a more normal take on matters to these boards than the ardent Zionists who have some baggage shall we say. Which is why, I trust in real life, Ian would avoid the likes of Stalker Harvey et al, who as far as PR is concerned, give much to the opposition – much like the now infamous gathering of the KKK Blairite MPs going to lynch a black man – can’t beat home goals like that.
Shaved yet, ‘Peach’?
Are you upset because I responded to a comment that you made and addressed my response to Stephen? If so, let’s rewind and assume, just for a moment that I responded to you directly. Did you have anything substantive to say?
Hadn’t noticed any, in a lather, reply by you to my comments, Peach.
Yep. Davy has nothing substantive to say. It’s all due to his various mental health issues.
To place a construct on a response to the post by ‘Davy’ above we can both agree that;- Hamas suffers casualties that ” resulted in a launch of the usual tube rockets towards Israel.”
Hamas digs tunnels under the border of a sovereign state to infiltrate and attack its population.
Hamas suffers casualties when its supporters approach our border with malicious intent when they themselves have admitted that 80% of the casualties thus far have been their fighters; their own statistics, and they accompany them with images of the ‘martyrs’ to make their point.
I would add that if, in the conclusion of the response there is a criticism of a ” blase attitude to death” it is not particularly helpful to use throw away lines like “the usual tube rockets” as if this was somehow as acceptable and commonplace as popping out to do a bit of shopping..
We make absolutely no apologies for dealing firmly and decisively with enemies within our borders or beyond them who have committed themselves to our complete destruction. As long as Hamas continues in its endeavours and use civilians to shield them or to prosecute their mendacious plans, they will continue to suffer the consequences of their actions as our first responsibility is the safety and security of our own population. This will not be diluted by any words tapped out on social media channels by people that could barely hit Israel on a map with a Pilates ball and whose hatred of Jews far far outweighs their concern for Arabs.
Oh, I know where Israel is, Ian, and the areas where it isń’t .. for the moment, also where some of its citizens foolishly put their own families at risk by making ghem live in outposf forts on thd lanc of others.
I see that you continue to push the ‘tunnels are to attack civilians’ hasbara.
Perhaps Hitler was thinking of the future of his people when he embafked on his forays and ethnic cleansing of undesirables, as Israel is doing. No apologies from him too?
Dumb Davy, Considering that when Jesus walked the streets of Jerusalem,
– there were NO Muslims
– NO mosques in Jerusalem or anywhere in the West Bank of the Jordan River
your terrorist “palestinians” are making false claims on Jewish/Israeli land on the West Bank.
Now if Arabs/Muslims could just get along with each other, instead of murdering each other, the tired slogan of Islam being the Religion of Peace would have some credibility
Your tired Taqiyya can’t cutting it anymore.
Enjoy your rambles, Edward.
Enjoy your Nakba, Davy.
Edward ‘Trump voting’ Zionist Nutter,
Have you murdered any Mexicans, Porto Rican’s or Palestinian’s today, I mean it is Labour Day, so no doubt your sniper rifle is unpacked and you are off to kill some Palestinians. How do you mount the decapitated heads and what chemicals do you use to stop them decaying in your household?
President Trump leads and sane Europe follows.
President Macron of France and PM May are allies of the US and President Trump.
Again ‘Davy’ I think that your aim as a contributor is fairly clear from the tone of your posts as is the value in engagement. So for clarification I will say that it is of no concern to any Israeli, the purpose or function of a tunnel dug under our sovereign border. The fact that it is there at all is sufficient to cause us to deploy our full resources to conclusively neutralize the infiltration. This guarantees the safety and security of our civilians populations in Nahal Oz, Kisufim, Sderot and other communities within our borders.
In will leave response to your other remarks to those that are more adroit at addressing that sort of sensationalist propaganda in their own inimitable styles. Shouting slogans across the room at strangers is a pointless exercise and not my thing.
Israeli geography 101
‘Davy’ asks the following question in the thread above “Should Palestinians apologize when they also defend against an enemy that seeks to deny them their state, akin to destroying one?”
Obviously loaded and highly manufactured questions likes do nothing to promote the cause of the Arabs or encourage truthful exchange. They merely serve to further highlight the self serving aims of the contributor. Had he been more motivated to offer a sincere observation he may have clarified that the Arabs had been offered their own state on 3 occasions and rejected the offers. As he will know but will certainly choose to sidestep, Israel was prepared to grant them 98% of their territorial demands in return for peace and they rejected it. Had they accepted the proposal they would, in all likelihood be living in their own state now and contributors like ‘Davy’ would be grasping for another straw to persecute their aim of demeaning Jews.
Propagandists on this site contort themselves into extraordinary knots to make their points which are often as preposterous as they are transparent. But the suggestion of equivalence between one side that avows the total destruction of the Jewish State and acts upon its aim by launching thousands of “the usual tube rockets at Israel” and another that offers the Arabs a state of their own sets a new benchmark.
It is so funny watching Ian trying to mind the shop while David is hob nobbing in Jerusalem with Simon Cobbs and various other assorted crack pots. I have to say he is making a very ham fisted job of it.
The narcissism, arrogance and sense of entitlement that leads to constructs like “…….offers the Arabs a state of their own” is breathtaking.
So anyway Ian where are these sovereign borders you kee banging on about ?
Hang on a minute Bellers. You said you were one of the brickies that put them up in your gap yaaar (minus 3 months).
No answer came the loud reply
Hadn’t noticed a serious question.
Where are your borders Ian ? Seems a straightforward question to me.
I’d happily refer you to a map but you may have a fairly selective approach to your source materials.
A map will do fine if it clearly shows your borders
What are the borders of the Arab/Muslim world?
Does it include Western Europe?
Morning Bellers. “HAM fisted” ? Perleeez!
If the fist fits eat it.
Great banter Bellers
Marc Wadsworth Legal Pot now stands just shy of £1,100 quid of his £25K target, Saul Freeman et al are up in arms spitting dummies – seems English jurisprudence does not apply to anyone who ain’t white, which is racism. Not only this, their witch hunt for those Barristers & Solicitors offering ‘pro-bone’ advice to Marc continues apace – that one of these persons offering assistance is a BAME, should come as no surprise. And yet Collier’s cookie crew want’s to Lynch them, Shameful these Zionist openly racist persons are. Alas wads worth’s going to have the last laugh, which I’m highly proud of.
More Crazy Chris Word Salad.
Keep flailing around.
Happy Nakba and may ALL your JIhads turn into Nakbas!
Bellers you and I have been contributors here for long enough for you to have clarified quite clearly the sorts of exchange that you want and the sorts that you do not. You are certainly not interested in a serious or sincere exchange here so I suggest that you cast your line in the direction of your more traditional and nibblesome targets. You are far more likely to achieve your objectives in those waters.
Didn’t notice an answer to Stephen’s repeated question anywhere in that bluster, Ian. Still waiting for the latest instructions from your runner?
‘Davy’ please allow me a moment to strip away the uncharitable image of a timorous Richard Hammond cowering behind the more antagonistic Jeremy Clarkson bleating ” yeah…borders….(simper)…. zioNazi!!!”
We are far too far apart to ever have any useful conversation. Bellers also has his own agenda to follow here and similarly has no genuine interest in discussion. You may have more luck with some of the more colourful contributors here that seem to enjoy engaging with your presentational style.
No answer came the loud reply
Interesting though that you don’t find the question of where Israel’s borders are a serious one.
Serious enough to shoot dead unarmed folk that venture near wire fence which may well be seriously electrified.
For clarification if we were to electrify fences, we would always do it seriously. In the more likely event that we shoot ‘folk that venture near wire fence’, 80% have been identified by Hamas as their own fighters and so ending up dead is entirely the risk they take. As you say we are quite serious about the security of our sovereign border. To keep Bellers calm that’s the bit between Gaza which is not Israel and Israel which is.
I don’t see anything remotely serious in the question Bellers. You have spent so long here playing the “I’m not here to engage” card, the “not arsed” response or the “If you think I give a fuck..” hand that it’s hard to draw any other conclusion. We’ve even covered the benchmark you set for ‘interesting’. So in the absence of a rude shaped carrot I can assume that you don’t find it that interesting.
Bluster Ian bluster. Where are your borders ? You better up your game Ian or David won’t leave you looking after the shop again.
ps I have never said I am not here to engage. I am not here to argue. I am merely asking you a perfectly straightforward question
No game to up or down Bellers and as for the remark about bluster, I will have to take that one on the chin. Lucky this site is run by a dedicated and knowledgeable host rather than self serving amateurs like us.
We should all be dedicated to our careers, Ian.
How lucky is that
Mind you having his mug shot taken all huggy and kissy with Simon ” proper people not girls ” Cobbs was not very smart. I guess there is no substitute for experience.
As I said Bellers; self serving amateurs. You can copy and paste it on your site with all of your pretend Jews, bent lawyers and anyone that was on the same side of the street as Squiffy and Squodgy.
Not the same side of the street Ian, more lustful embrace. I have tried to sincerely warn David about this kind of thing but he seems to know best. As a professional with ten years experience I can assure him that he doesn’t
There you go.
Oh Ian do something about your bottom lip. You have made a manful attempt to successfully mind the mind the shop. There is no shame in getting out of your depth.
Take a tip from Antoine St Just, l’enfant terrible de la revolution
” Today I have done badly, tomorrow I will do better”
You’re funny Bellers.
Gnasher said I laugh too when he ties fire works to my tail
I really must get this cat his own twitter account
With the recent attention given here to the subject of borders I think that the following article is a useful addition to the discussion. The source is an Israeli news channel rather than the more Arab leaning media that some contributors here like to present as evidence. So again this is simply designed to create a balance in the thread. There are no PR quotes from Israeli generals but instead this from Mahmoud Al-Habbash, The PA Advisor on Islamic Affairs and a Supreme Sharia Judge who calls the border protests
“The Great Deception March” and accuses Hamas of “intentionally sending Palestinians in Gaza to go and die, only so that Hamas has stories of dead Palestinians for the TV and media.” He adds that “Hamas knows that most observers will simply focus on images of injured and killed Gazans, rather than blame Hamas for sending children towards a militarized border.”
It seems that this guy is pretty clear where the border is. He also seems to understand the opportunities that it presents to the terrorists to leverage the ‘Davys’ into action, maybe the Stephens as well.
Who cares what some PA arsehole says about anything.
Lets be blunt, Hasbara PR ain’t what it used to be, and with the advent of the internet and citizen Journalism, who in many cases are old school Journalists blackballed by an increasingly desperate MSM, the little, innocent Israel narrative just don’t stick anymore.
If I want to read up on Israel, I now go to Jonathan Cook, who for many years was The Guardian’s Middle East correspondent until, with the likes of Pilger, he was purged. And, if I desire to read about the geopolitics of the region I go to Sic Semper Tyrannus, which is a Republican/Conservative Blog run by a collective of former intelligence officers and army types – they don’t think much of Israel by the way, which of course in Collier’s book make them anti-semites – although I’d not personally like to mess around with these chaps as they ain’t afraid of litigation. Wonder if Scoffie will try it on with them or Saul Freeman?
Two rather different remarks above.
In terms of the customary “who cares…?” Bellers, I think that there are still contributors here that allege some sympathy with the Arabs, real or not. These people claim to have their views informed by the media channels and commentators that reinforce their sympathies and often cite them as proof of one or other tale of colonial oppression or genocide by the Jewish State. I can’t speak for them but I imagine that some may care when they see the words of an influential figure embedded in the heart of the Arab Leadership that debunks some of the fluff that the activists have worked so hard to establish as gospel.
I can’t really comment on the hasbara remarks in relation to the recent contribution Chris as this wasn’t the point of the inclusion. Truth be told I was simply trying to post something that presents some balance as opposed to the more traditional approach where anonymous strangers shout nonsense across virtual rooms at each other. The subject matter may inform a view. It might not, but it seems less a pointless endeavour than the alternative. Ditto my response where the other stuff is concerned. My disconnect with activism means I don’t spend any time trawling any of the other areas that you mentioned. Similarly your references to Squiffy et al are as far over my head as a 175 cm limbo bar.
For the record, will you attest to the fact that Jonathan Cook is a decent, fair minded Journalist who knows his stuff, if we concur on that, and you personally wish to put your case, then this is a most valid thing to do as it assures balanced coverage and responses, rather than just spin.
Again, I’m concerned you have not expressed any sadness at the fact that 1000’s have been maimed and killed by your Security Forces since the present issues arose in Gaza nearly 4 weeks ago. And, let me reiterate once more I do not question in any way Israel’s right to exist, I shall also condemn anyone who proposes the removal of Jewish folks from the Holy Land’s. Further, I support Israel moving back to its pre-67 war borders and accepting internationally arbitration to settle this issue once and for all – if any Arabs or Israeli’s, supporters are opposed to such moves, then they are against a peaceful, just resolution and should be condemned.
I trust this view is neither biased or radical, but the killing in Gaza must stop, and I say the same too about Yemen, Syria and Kurdish strongholds in Turkey. Enough really is enough.
Is that the Arab leadership in its 65th year of a 4 year term or whatever
Absolutely love Garfield’s photo here, I actually thought it was Scoffie, still my eyesight is now failing badly – noticed Galber as well. God I’m just a novice compared to these lot. Still, a quick learner, but London really is nuts – I much prefer Wales: https://azvsas.blogspot.hk/2017/12/exclusive-we-name-gang-of-31-zionists.html
I haven’t read any of his stuff Chris so am in no position to offer an opinion on whether he is or is not any of those things. As you say there is little or no journalistic integrity left in the world as the appetite for news consumption has changed and the traditional media channels have been required to adopt new tactics to meet the challenges they face to sustain readership and justify ad revenues.
Like any normal human I am saddened at the loss of innocent human life and even more so when the victims are some of the most vulnerable people on the planet. To be played as pawns and marched to their deaths by their own leaders and then by the propagandists on the social networks is disgraceful. This was entirely the point of the article I linked earlier which you may or may not have read. When the Arabs themselves are saying this then even the most hardened activist will struggle to present the counterpoint with any credibility.
The killing in Gaza will stop when protesters keep a safe distance from a militarized border, desist from their attempts to breach it and when the operatives that Hamas freely admits to being their own cease in their attempts at prosecuting terror.
Enough IS enough and on this we agree.
So offering the Palestinians a state of their own is condescending and all that goes with that sentiment
Are you suggesting then that rather than the Palestinians have their own state , they should just resort to destroying Israel and replacing it with their own state, which is a oxymoronic statement at best and an attempted joke on the Jews at worst
Or are you suggesting that the Jews should annex the west bank and give all the Arabs citizenship (like some moronic Jews suggest) and see Israel self destruct and the Jews either get massacred or despatched back to the ‘galut’ to enjoy the fruits of Antisemitism without the pride of having their own land.
Both are ideas of fools and Antisemites
Davys’ comments are mostly monoslybic asides to others that do nought to contribute to conversation and/or knowledge.
He does occasionally posit questions that to all intents and purposes serve to answer themselves and further his inbred bias.
He is probably the anti-Israel commentator on this site with the least to say, and what little is said, is fairly garbled anyway.
You threw some fairly liabelous commentary about Arkush, without ever substantiating your very vague attemps at justification.
Now you are accusing Trump of being a racist bigot.
This is a common allegation.
Yet like all the other accusers, I have never yet seen proof of Trumps so-called racist bigotry, and other than the accusations, I have yet to see any proof of those accusations.
Any fool can accuse another of anything, but it does take a brain to actually substantiate those wild allegations
So lets see what your reply is (please not another tongue-in-cheek mindless riposte to show your superiour knowledge of nothingness by offering vacuous statement of wump-a-loo to gogle bats on squidgy moron -; I hope that says it)
I don’t recall mentioning Trump. I may have but don’t recall it. Had I been eligible I would have voted for him As were I eligible I would vote for Bibi.
Has it not occured to you that no one wants to touch Wadworth et al because they are toxic material
Insinuating that it racism that makes them toxic demeans the meaning of what racism is.
Now waiting to hear you repeat as you will, that I am agreeing to your charge that Labours opponents are using Antisemitism as a weapon.
Labours opponents will gain nothing by accusations of Antisemitism as most of the country is not interested, and it will neither help nor hinder Labour in any elections.
The issue of Antisemitism in Labour is mostly an internal Jewish issue that has acheived international prominence because of the fact that it does exist in an area where it was once felt to be not present; and this is the main reason for the controversy rumbling on.
Antisemitism exists on the right, and no one even tries to deny it.
Antisemitism exists on the left, and the lefts protestations that it doesn’t is what has fueled the debate
To deny the obvious is to confirm it, making further denial confirm and reinforce that reality
Richard would you substantiate that no one wants to touch Wadworth ?
Your reply to Edward really is mindlesly vacuous and silly.
Do better than that
So lets talk peace, or rather the ability to run when peace is discussed
But then you are not really interested, are you. (statement, not question)
2000 when Arafat walked away from peace and started the murdering of Jewish civilians in the second intifada
2007 when Abbas forget to get back in touch with Olmert about the peace proposal that offered Olmert
Having wasted precious time yesterday, my advise would be not to bother feeding the troll. Davy’s bona fides or lack of them are all too apparent.
The exact demarcation of borders is a trap that your beloved Palestinians are putting forward to get any future negotiations to begin with Israel having laid its stance while your beloved friends say nothing.
As long as Israel does not start with a map that the Palestinians will then try to alter, your beloved Palestinians will prevaricate to avoid being tied down. (reminds me of you and your continuois prevarication on this site)
Richard if Israel won’t tell us what its borders are it is in no position to whine about its borders being violated.
Thick ignorant crap, as usual.
We Jews/Israelis have seen the Palestinians make all kinds of statements and offers and then either ignore them or act in exactly the opposite way.
A case in point is Gaza and the thousands of projectiles and terror launched on Jewish civilians
So now we want to see the Palestinians act sincerely before we trust them
We will not trust international guarantees from the UN or anywhere else to safeguard our safety.
The last time we put our trust in the international community for protection, that community looked away and 6 000 000 million Jews were mass murdered
So excuse me when I say your suggestion is b–llsh–it
A slight clarification for your seriously anti-Jewish comment
the fence has low voltage electricity that is used for electronic signaling to a central point to alert to damage.
The fact that the fence has been breached many times with no fatality or injury bt electricity attests to that fact
Your animus to Jewish Israel and your fevoured imagination seems to be so intense that you see, and manufacture incidents of peril and danger where none exists
You need to get ahold of yourself and use a touch of proportionality and sense to your wild allegations
You are requesting answers to questions
Don’t you think it is about time you started answering the questions I have been posing concerning your more bizzare and silly statements you have made about Israel and Arkush
Well tell me one silly statement I have made about Arkush
And I have stated I am not entitled to be answered
Dumb Bellamy, The only thing you are entitled to is
a Happy Nakba.
Stephen, dear Stephen
Is Ian getting under your skin then
If you are going to try rubbish him, please try use fact related to this site to try contest what he says
All this petty, low level personel insult is …..well petty
Richard I sought Ian’s take on a certain issue. I am not entitled to an answer. At the same time I assume the right to call out a non answer as such
What exactly is it that you want
You ask Ian a question about borders, and he sends you an article by an anti-Israel protagonist who has an element of authority on the matter, and you dismiss it out of hand
I know you are trying to be provocotive, but do try to show a modicum of intelligence at the same time
What is wonderful about living in our time is the plethora of sources of information and fact
With this abundance of knowldge comes a responsibility to sort fact from fiction and fact from opinion.
Most of what we read is filtered by personal bias, and most of what is written is filtered by personal bias and limited by our inability to know everything about everything.
Thus I try to read as much as possible on a particular subject from multiple sources.
To take the views of one knowlegable conservative think tank that has negative views on a subject, requires that that view should be measured against a similar institution that has a positive view on the subject
Thus a negative view can be held about Netanyahu and a positive view of Israel, as well as the exact opposite ; and they can all be correct/incorrect depending on the angle of the issue at hand.
Israel is a very polarising issue, because of its attachment to the Jews and the 3500 years of ancient historical and emotional baggage with which it comes.
Ignoring this very salient fact distorts both fact and opinion
So a dislike or hatred of Jews can as likely colour the opinions of the subject as fact pertaining said subject
You are entitled to your opinions, which includes liking or disliking Jews; but as the subject is so fraught with emotion, it always has to be studied with an elment of retraint and the knowledge rhat much of what is described as fact is in fact opinion
This is the most reasonable post I have seen of yours, and it certainly maked it much easier to debate some of the contentious isses that arise here
Firstly, I agree wholeheartedky that the deaths and injuries sustained on the Gaza border are an absolute tragedy.
Where we can both differ is on why they happened and how to prevent more of the same
I am often reminded in situations like this of a particulr phenomena that has occured in certain quarters; namely ‘suicide by policeman’ or here ‘suicide by IDF’ whereby individuals confront authorities with the knowledge and intent to try and get killed
The motivation differs, but the result is attained
What I find so tragic in Gaza is that Hamas has wilfully manipulated the situation for its own benefit.
They are aware that the only way they can keep themselves in the spotlight is by media coverage of conflict and injuries and death
When you watch TV news, take note of the content of that news, and the amount of time devoted to each subject on a particular bulletin.
Except for a particular subject, normally decided in advance, all items get between 30 seconds to two minutes before moving on th the next subject.
For most people, their sole news come from TV
So the Palestinians need their dead youth on TV to keep their issue alive
The Palestinian issue no longer dominates the news as they once did due to the fact that it has finally reached the point where Palestinian are no more worthy, no more victims, than any other conflict
This situation offers us the possibility of finally ending this conflicr by negotiation rather than by constant war by removing the Palestinians feeling of ‘exceptionalism and particularism’ in relation to other theatres of conflict.
The leaderdhip is onty into its seventhlyeigthly year of its ninetyeleventh monthlyyearlyday of its semi elected sentance uf doolybog
Your reference to Greenslimes blog is telling.
Incidently, could you tell me why I was included in his Gallery
Must confess that it made my day seeing my inclusion there, but for the life of me, I cannot work out what I have done to receive such accolades as that bestowed upon me by the Greenslime
I thought ole Greenstein was putting a family photo album together, so was a little pissed he omitted myself – still, at least Garfield the stalker looked cute, in a rogues gallery sort of way!
“was a little pissed he omitted myself”
The rank Narcissist, Crazy Chris, having an honest moment.
Ian did give you an answer which you immediately trashed because yo don’t want answers, you just want to be unpleasantly provocative
And yes you do need to reply to reasonable questions to totally moronic statements which you make solely to be provocative
Once again you excell yourself
You ask Ian about borders and he sends you a link about the Gaza border which you immediately rubbish
Then you come with this comment of yours about the Gaza border the International community, the Palestinians and the Israelis agree on
The green Line between Israel and Judea& Samaria/West Bank is disputed.
The Gaza demarcation line has been recognised by all
But then I suppose you in your provocotive, cynical superiority have the insight to demand answers and make statements that are intentionaly posited to muddy the water.
But then dear Stephen, who really gives a toss
Do carry on; we all await your snide, provocative commentary as we use it to hone our ideas for use elsewhere and with others
tum tiddily tum and for good measure hohum
I know it takes effort to check, but my reference to Trump was in reply to your comment; or do you make comment without thinking ie brain on meltdown or summat
hehaw hehaw and zum tiddly poo
Are you asking a question or what
Do you want an answer or what
But to be polite, which I am, I shall answer
My comment was in response to Rodgers saying that Wadsworth is being avoided because of his colour and racism, while I say he is being avoided because he is a toxic product in todays political world
Or do I await some snide, provocotive commentary
I see no evidence Wadsworth is being avoided. On the contrary he is attracting massive support
Where’s your evidence that Mr Marc Wadsworth is being avoided or is allegedly toxic please?
However, to clear matters up, first we had a Kangaroo Court hearing for Marc with no BAME members on the NCC three person panel – never mind the KKK gathering of Smeeth supporters that made for a massive home goal – not a BAME face in sight.
Second, the Wadsworth case was heard in the final week of campaigning for the England & Wales local elections, which curtails much that can be said, however, three honourable persons put generous words in for Marc, namely, my own former MP from Leicester East, Keith Vaz, Chris Williamson MP (another East Midland’s MP) and Clive Lewis MP – its the East Midland’s angle that’s of interest though.
Despite all the smearing Scoffie and his cohorts such as Saul Freeman can undertake, never mind the UK media, who’s biases are well known, much sympathy exists for Marc, particularly in the BAME community, so, I was delighted to be contacted by former peers from my days in the East Midland’s offering Opinion on the case, one of whom is a member of the Bar, the other a decent Solicitor practicing in the East Midland’s, who most certainly is not white.
Anyhow, imagine my surprise when the Zionist rag tag army of Blairite malcontents and EDL/Britain First types who inhabit the world of GnasherJew and LAAS (to name but a few) started a witch hunt for those issuing Legal Opinion to Wadsworth, based on the fact one of them applied to the LP legal position Formby advertised – given many have applied for this post seems to have lost the witch hunters, never mind any Legal advice they issue is ‘privileged’ on a ‘pro-bono’ basis.
Now, Wadsworth has his own Legal team and Chambers, but welcomed further Legal Opinion that may assist him in challenging this egregious decision by the NCC to expel a lifelong anti-racist campaigner, who’s actually part of the Windrush generation.
To cut a long story short, and despite all my alleged connections with the JVL and other groups opposed to Zionism or Israeli aggression against Palestine, the fact remains it took nearly 5 entire days to get Wadsworth’s correct, personal contact details and link all parties up.
Now, that’s all I know, and I’m certainly not in any loop or privy to any exchanges between Marc and the legal experts now advising him – well, that’s if he actually takes up their generous offers, which he has not confirmed to me. And why should he, I’m a bloody stranger!
I have donated £40 to Marc’s Legal Fund’s and encouraged others to follow likewise, so, by Friday he should be on £25K, which I’m reliably informed is enough money to cover expected costs to challenge the NCC Ruling.
That’s my total involvement in the matter, which is negligible to say the least as I’ve not even been privy to the NCC conclusions – at least in Greenstein’s case that material was quickly available and made most interesting reading.
you become weirder and weirder as time progresses
why on eath would you ask a question if you didn’t want an answer
I never said your comments on Arkush were silly, I said they were libelous
hiphala wooly baba and zurp
Well wanting an answer is not the same as feeling entitled to one.
you follow the slime so ask him to add you
as Sergai says , ‘simple’
Latest UN figures on murders, maiming’s and injuries in the latest nearly month long Gaza protests is fast approaching the 7K mark, obviously ardent Zionists and Israeli apologists blame the victims. Alas, seems our Israeli friends have learn’t well from the Masters in the UK, here’s Keith Flett on the case: https://kmflett.wordpress.com/
Rodgers my boy
You play with figures and words.
When Jews feel under attack, as history is proved, their instincts as to the intention of the attackers is clear
The Gazans are attacking Israel with the plainly stated aim of overpowering and destroying Israel and murdering the Jews
To claim otherwise after being aware of the constant murder and maiming of Jews over the last 1400 years by Christians and Muslims would make you a liar and a bigot.
So when people attack Jews with malice-aforethought and they get killed, it is self defence for Jews and only called murder by Jew hating bigots.
The vast majority of ‘injuries’ are caused by smoke inhalation from non-lethal crowd control tear gas; unless for conveinience sake you are going to brand tear gas as lethal.
Galber Old Boy,
Seven years knocking around University is subject areas where empirical facts are of the utmost import, never mind the official Records of our Civil Servants and Ministers whilst in office, does mean said facts are important. Are you contesting UN released figures yet again this week, or just playing ‘bait & switch’. I’m acutely aware of the political situation and wholeheartedly align myself with the Palestinian’s on this issue – if you don’t like it tough, but me, I deplore what’s happening and don’t make bloody excuses of victim blame.
So you are trying to compare the Gazans attacking Israel with the oft stated intention of destroying Israel and murdering its Jewish citizens to the killing of protestors calling for voting rights
You are being disingenuous or worse
The comparison is superficial to say the least; comparing chalk with cheese
I am not sure if by this comparison you are insulting my intelligence or your own
Not too sure old bean, I don’t walk into another persons lands and call them my own, which I think they usually refer too as Colonialism. Indeed, I’m opposed to Imperialism & Colonialism, however, I do recognise facts and usually don’t dispute them.
Oldie but goldie
Chris, I’ve followed the exchange that you have had with other people here and although a great deal of the words tend to deal with things that you oppose, things that you reject and things that you believe are bad and rarely offer positive practical suggestions, you did end your most recent contribution by saying ” I do recognise facts and usually don’t dispute them.” Notwithstanding the word ‘usually’ I wonder whether there is some scope to turn the sense of all of this on its head for the good and do so by taking you at your word.
Without getting al philosophical, whether you oppose it or not there is a border between Israel and Gaza. This is a fact. It is heavily militarized and is designed like every other border between two places; to implement control of passage between the two places in line with the national security policy of the places on either side. This is also a fact.
Israel has the same entitlement to implement its own border control as every one of the other 193 states on the planet and this includes prohibiting access across its border in certain circumstances. This is also a fact.
So when some of those circumstances arise in direct proximity to the point of entry and a clear and present danger is evident, SPECIFICALLY when a clear and present danger is evident – lets say in a circumstance where a person has approached the border and is attempting to damage or destroy its physical fabric with the aim of entering Israel illegally and with motives unknown a question in 2 parts (1) what practical suggestion can you offer for dealing with this event that differs from the current response? (2) Could this suggestion be overlain as a useful blueprint for any one of the other 193 countries to use as part of their border control strategy and particularly in a similar scenario?
Please note I am not taking a myopic propagandist position here. I am not trying to trick you and have constructed the scenario with emphasis on real danger. As ever I am far more interested in expanding the discussion rather than making up a four for “Bellers plays social media”.
Whilst I’m not disputing your post, nor wishing to undermine you, let me suggest this scenario: In the advent of the UK exiting the EU and a hard border resulting between Northern Ireland & the Irish Republic, if thousands gathered on the Irish Republic’s side of the border to denounce its imposition & the UK military then murdered and maimed 7000 protestors, none of whom were armed, would you condemn the UK government?
You are aware I most certainly would, particularly given I owe no allegiance to the UK, its a political construct.
Chris, thank you for the response. I had posted in the way that I did because you had said that ” I do recognise facts and usually don’t dispute them.” It is always a good starting point when there is some certainty to work with. My scenario was designed to present facts rather than create hypotheses so we could continue along this line. You have chosen to move away from my example of facts and ask me about a hypothesis. I’ll work with this.
In your scenario and in order to create meaningful equivalence to mine, there is a hard border between the UK and Eire. It is heavily militarized and both sides exert the levels of strict border control to which they are entitled. It is known that element on the Eire side have declared their antipathy towards the UK and intend to act upon this by attending the physical border in numbers. In so doing some individuals break away and when at the fence itself, produce tools to damage the fence and weapons to fire to the other side of the border. Molotov cocktails are thrown that start large fires on private agricultural land in the UK. A local terror group admits in public fora that the perpetrators are their members. The border control operatives on the UK side take appropriate steps within accepted protocols to avert the individuals from their endeavours but to no avail. Failing to deter them from infiltrating the border using any passive means they open fire and kill them. To deter larger numbers from an approach tear gas and other dispersal methods are used. Local commentators characterise this as ‘maiming’. The remaining crowds disperse to a safe distance from the border fence where they are safe and free to continue their protest.
You create a sensible scenario Chris and in these terms we have built up a practical equivalence between the facts I presented above and your own hypothesis. Could I imagine a scenario in which the UK Border control operatives would behave towards Irish terrorists like Israeli did against Hamas? Could I imagine the Chinese, the Russians, the Americans or almost any of the other 193 countries in the world behaving in the same way as Israel. I think if we were truly honest with each other we both could.
Israeli geography 101
Like it … and musical too.
Israel “gaining time” by delaying peace talks?
But its all about ‘proportionality’, namely, and will you concur, that those demonstrating in Gaza at this juncture in time in an ‘open space’ are unarmed – of course, as in any demonstration, even one’s here on the UK mainland, you have some over zealous individuals who may have petrol bombs or the like on their person, but, on the whole the Gaza demo has been inhabited by persons of good will – they have had enough.
Again, may I recount events that occurred in Derry during January 1972, namely Bloody Sunday, which had a most negative impact on the UK’s relationship with NI Catholics – essentially, the Para’s over reacted and killed and maimed innocents – there was international outrage, particularly within the USA. Having a bit on a inside track on these events courtesy of the brother of one of the two junior officers leading the Para’s, whilst I have sympathy, I still condemn these actions by the UK military, and by extension the UK government.
I’ve genuinely asked you to express some sympathy or outrage at the current events in Gaza, which deep down I think you actually do share with me.
None of the above suggests I oppose Israel its State right to defend itself from attack, but by the same extension, neighbouring countries have a right to defend themselves from Israeli attacks, particularly those that breach a sovereign nations territory.
If you desire peace and safety, lets try moving borders back to where they were prior to the 67 War and ensuring UN support for a peaceful Resolution of this most horrible time in history.
As I’ve stated all along, you seem a better person than many posting here and do have the ability to recognise that some peaceful Accord must be sought.
They were not borders.
The UN is an antisemitic sewer.
Is that statement an acceptance of my marriage proposal, I mean, I realise you often speak in code, so take it we can announce our engagement in the Jewish Chronicle ASAP?
Plenty of time ‘Davy’. 10 years to be precise since the Arabs last rejected a peace plan.
Only takes a second to copy and paste a tune or post a slogan on social media though.
No Israeli rush towards peace then, settlement building can continue apace.
More screeching drivel from Creep Davy.
Proportionality is the right word Chris. Hamas indicated that 30,000 people attended their first protest. It was probably less but let’s take them at their word. As you rightly say “you have some over zealous individuals who may have petrol bombs or the like on their person”. In the main these have been the fatalities which current figures put at around 60. Of these Hamas admits that 80% are their own fighters and have produced photos to support this. Again let’s take them at their word. So from the numbers given by Hamas we can conclude that the total fatality rate is 0.2% but when you exclude the Hamas fighters it is actual 0.04%. Would you agree that the this represents reasonable proportionality? I think we both would.
Naturally we both deplore the senseless deaths of 12 or so innocent civilians that have been caught up in all of this but as you say, all nations have the right to implement a robust border control policy in defence of its civilian population.
I have no doubt that if you or I were to approach UK border control at Luton Airport, LAX, Changi or Dubai waving a petrol bomb we’d be dead before we hit the floor.
I won’t dispute your figures, as that would take a serious amount of research on my behalf, and taking the fact you appear a honourable man, I think I’d be wasting my time.
However, and again looking at proportionality, most of the victims killed have been no where near enough to endanger any IDF or Boarder Agencies, namely, they have been targeted by snipers with rather powerful rifles that can take a head off at 1000 meters – if life is actually endangered, I will not condemn proportionate force. Indeed, all persons have a right to defend themselves if they believe their life is in immediate & clear danger – alas, mistakes also happen.
Both sides wish to send a clear message, but in the PR war I’m afraid Israel is losing this one & actual proportionality is what’s at issue – the UK lean’t this bitter lesson years ago in Northern Ireland, a lesson Israel seems not to have learned.
Anyhow, we are getting there Ian, which is a start and glad you concede the dates of innocents is to be avoided and not encouraged.
PS, Where I reside our Police are armed, and we have marine police who are quite heavily armed, despite this fact, its most rare indeed for our Police to pull a weapon, never mind discharge it – they are a bit more ‘gung ho’ in Singapore, and even more so in the Philippines, where unsavoury types like to utilise hand grenades, never mind automatic fire arms.
Unhappily Chris, we cannot protect our citizens from terror with good PR. The Arab PR machine has worked tirelessly from Gaza to repeat loudly and often that their intention is the destruction of my country. When their leadership talks in these tones and then approaches our border control points with petrol bombs they cannot have any doubts what the outcome will be when faced with a highly militarized adversary. As I think we can agree, you and would suffer an equally inglorious fate if we were to approach any border control point anywhere in the world, brandishing a flaming Molotov.
But there in Israel you really don’t need a Molotov to be shot dead … they’re optional.
More from the screeching tosser Davy.
David, I notice that you have a table at the head of your blogs that claim Israel dismantles settlements, gives up land, works on a solution for Jerusalem and accepts two states for two peoples. Aren’t you being deceitful with these claims?
What land that was legally Israel’s did it give up?
How many of the hundreds of illegal settlements has it dismantled?
What solution is it currently working on for Jerusalem?
Why hasn’t Israel accepted and recognised a Palestinian state?
p.s. Israel was recognised by the PA(PLO) in ’93.
There already is a Two-State solution.
Israel on the West Bank and Jordan on the East Bank. Jordan is the defacto Pal-e-STINE since so many, and King Abdullahs wife, claim to be Pal-e-STINIANS.
If that isn’t enough perhaps scotland or ireland or Londonistan can cede some land for a Pal-e-STINE.
Well, if it isn’t David’s pet mongrel, who he tolerates to foul about the place.
You sometimes produce comments that are so crass that they don’ deserve comment.
This is most certainly one , from start to finish.
Why don’t you donate £100 or even £500 to Wadsworth as you think so highly of him; he certainly needs tour help
Unlike you, i’m not a millionaire, as such, it was financially challenging to donate £40 to Mr Wadsworth’s legal fund to fight the injustice of his Ejection from the Labour Party by a kangaroo court in an English Civil Court – If I’d have had a spare £1000 i’d have donated that, alas, i don’t I’m afraid.
Crazy Chris, Beg someone in HK to give you £40.
Beg? Who do think he is? Netanyahu?
Of course not you ignorant sack of socialist SHITler.
BTW Happy May 8th! The 73rd anniversary of the UNCONDIITONAL SURRENDER of your fellow fascist socialist filth!
G-d Bless US President Donald J. Trump! 🙂
Ah, I remember.
That was the war that America avoided entering for years until Hitler declared war on THEM. Then they had NO CHOICE.
Thank goodness for the Russians, who lost many times 6 million!
Do you come to this site to debate, or to be an arsehole?.
Why do I ask?
If you are here to debate , then you have no issue with the existance of Israel
If you are here to be an arsehole, then you have an issue with the existance of Israel per se
This post I am replying to gives the impression that you believe Israel does not have the right to exist, and that Jews should return to being second class citizens and subject to occasional pogroms in the Arab/Muslim lands, and in Europe to being accorded full human rights between being treated like second class citizens to being mass murdered like animals in abbatoirs
I have huge issue’s when nation states embark on the demonisation, starvation and mass slaughter of any group, or groups of persons they deem undesirable. I need say no more in response to the rest of your crass comment.
Richard, you know quite well that creep Chris IS an arsehole, coming here solely to drip ignorant hatred.
Surely you realise that the bulk of hatred on this blog is spewed by yourself and the unruly Edward.
The fight in Derry was to try and get the English/British to leave Northern Ierland so that they could join the Republic in the south.
Hamas, in its charter (basically unchanged by its recent revision) calls unequivocally for the destruction of Israel and at best the expulsion of the Israeli Jews.
I say at best because previously they called for the erradication of JEWS by quoting the famous hadith that is so often used by Jew Haters throughout the Muslim world (did not say all Muslims)
There is no equivilance between calling for a very small part of a larger country being hived off to its neighbour, and the call for the total destruction of a country.
If you are unable to differenciate between these two concepts, then I must question your motives and/or your intelligence; there is no comparison.
As I’ve not issued support for Hamas, Fatah or any other political group for that matter, I have bugger all to answer. I have huge sympathy for the Palestinian people, who have been treated appallingly by a regime intent or eradicating what remains of the Palestinian territories, which are significantly smaller today than they were in 1948 – this fact alone indicates clearly that Israel is an expansionist state intent on war, rather than peace – see Syria as a prime example of this and Lebanon.
Crazy Chris, I have as much sympathy for your Pal-e-STINE as I do for your 1945 nazi Germany.
BTW, today, May 8th, is the 73rd anniversary of the UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER of your fellow socialist nazi filth to the US, UK and SU.
Still not diaper trained, I see, Edward.
How are your Depends, you incontinent Sack of Socialist SHITler?
Did President Trump announcement scare the crap out of you?
I think it scared the crap out of his carers in the White House., no-one else. Prob. illicited sympathy for his mental stability though.
More unhinged ignorant drivel from the sick creep Rogers.
The PLO has never removed their intention to destroy Israel from their manifesto/charter
They talked about it.
But they did nothing
So they still want to destroy Israel
Check it out
They still have recognised Israel. Israel has never recognised a Palestinian state.
Jordan is Pal-e-STINE – that’s on the EAST bank of the Jordan river.
that is the pot calling the kettle black
What can one say……?
So I, a Jew, am a millionaire.
This whole current Antisemitism imbroglio got its legs because of a mural that portrayed Jewish millionaire bankers sitting around a table supported by the poor and coloured people of this world, while they count their money.
And on this site, a site that is devoted to the exposure of Antisemitism, you accuse me, a Jew of being a millionaire without any proof or knowledge.
Now I must ask of you…..
1) are you ignorant of the connotations of your statement on a blog like this?
2) are you being provocotive?
3) are you just being a total arsehole?
4) are you a Jew hating Antisemite?
I am not sure if you have been swayed by the eternally ruling Abbas and his recent comments on Jews, or some form of cultural Jew baiting.
The Jews are accused of being wealthy and controlling the world, a well known Antisemetic trope; in fact a few weeks ago, a Washington local government legislator accused a Jew of controlling the weather and being responsible for the weird weather patterns the US is suffering.
So either you are ignorant of rge connotations of your comments, or you are an Antisemite.
Please tell; I am intrigued
“This whole current Antisemitism imbroglio got its legs because of a mural that portrayed Jewish millionaire bankers sitting around a table supported by the poor and coloured people of this world, while they count their money.”
The mural depicts 6 oligarchs at the table ..
ALL are WHITE! …. any accusation of hatred of whites? No?
ALL are MALE! … any accusation of hatred of males? No?
TWO of the six are alluded as being two famous Jewish enterpreneurs. That’s one third … a minority…. and the Zionist babies weep ‘antisemitism’ … it’s farcical.
Conclusion … NOT antisemitic
Given you’re skill at judging art, and its interpretation … NOT, suggest you don’t invest your wealth in any .old/new masters
I think you need glasses.
Look at any pictures of Gaza and there is no impression of starvation anywhere; in fact the opposite is apparent, a well fed popupulation.
And no Pal-e-STINIAN “refugee camps” filled with 70 year old tattered canvas tents.
Lots of Mercedes however.
Oh really, so tell me why Israeli Intelligence organisations themselves are worried by such facts, or are they anti-semites too?
As a Trump supporting warmonger and ardent Zionist your opinion has about as much validity as a dose of clap in a whorehouse – off you go fascist.
Mass murder; where.
You have been watching too many movies and reading too many comics.
Using your UN figures there have been about 7000 casualties.
Of those, about 45 have been deaths
The amount of Arabs ‘protesting’ at the border over 6 weeks has fluctuated between about 10 000 to 30 000 weekly; so lets say approximately 130 000 individuals all told as an inclusive number for all weeks
So about 45 deaths out of 130 000 participants; 0.05% casualties from total of participants
So about 45 deaths out of about 7000 casualties; 1.5% deaths of all casualties
Your language is straying into that nether world of hyperbole; in fact you are giving the term hyperbole a new meaning
If you care so much about the Palestinians, encourage them to make peace instead of kicking every opportunity for peace into touch, as they have done since about 1937.
Make as many excuses and wild allegations as you like; the only thing that will work is some sort of peace between both sides.
And we are not going to commit suicide so that your rozy picture of what you want for the Palestinians can occur.
Israel withdrew from most areas of WB and only returned in 2002 to prevent the slaughter of Jews by Palestinian suicide bombers.
A tacit recognition of a potential Palestinian State.
The Palestinian recognition was mere words with no import or meaning as the call to destroy Israel still exists in the PLO charter; the call to destroy Israel has never been removed.
“It is time to honestly admit that Israel is sick,”
Being aware of your antipathy to certain things Israel and all things BoD and Arkush and JLC, I would wonder if the comment you have used of Rivlin is out of context, mismatched, and its meaning distorted to reflect your jaundiced view of things
Yet you yourself tell of the Palestinian rejection of Israel peace terms without context … no honest broker you.
Meanings are meanings Richard.
You repeated the term ‘meanings’ twice
Are you sure you understand what the term means; or is this just another example of drivel posing as meaning
I don’t know who you are, and I’m not really interested
Your contributions to this site never rise above the mundane and petulant
I don’t know if you are Jewish or not; but your comments point to the fact that you arenot.
So I will take this opportunity to state that I don’t take the opinion on who and what is Antisemetic from someone I perceive to be an Antisemetic provoceur/provocare
Another irrelavent comment that illuminates nothing and says nothing.
What has intelligence agency got to do with the discussion at hand
Funny ol’ jolly rodgers
Well is the ‘clap’ relevant in a whorehouse; you appear to think not
Well ‘clap’ in a whorehouse for bussiness purposes is the death knell for said institution; they would have no customers in the blink of an eye.
So if you can misjudge such basic fact as this, one wonders how much else you misjudge, especially considering some of the irrelevancies you litter these columns with
Comments are closed.