Tuesday night saw a large gathering of Jewish people (and supporters) who came out to protest against anti-Jewish racism in the Labour party. It was an unprecedented show of disquiet from a community that clearly is unsettled by the persistent connection between Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbyn and ‘pockets’ of antisemitism both inside the party and out. As someone who has been researching these pockets for years, I believe their fears are justified. Many of those present had never been to a demonstration before.

To prove the point for the demonstrators, a small band of pro-Corbyn activists actually turned up to counter an anti-racist demonstration. The organisers were the group Jewish Voice for Labour, that was created inside the Labour Party to help deflect accusations of antisemitism. This advert for the event was shared inside the antisemitic Facebook Group Palestine Live:

Jewish Voice for Labour

So was this one:

Elleanne Green

And yes, Elleanne Green, Founder of Palestine Live, turned up with JVL to counter a demonstration about antisemitism:

Elleanne Green at JVL demo

Had a group turned up to counter an anti-racist march, or people protesting against anti-Muslim hatred, most people would have been rightfully sickened. However, that near-universal rejection of racism does not include the Jews.

The Jewish demonstration has been accused of being an attempt at political manipulation. It is seen as a Tory backed attempt to discredit Corbyn and of being a way of trying to stifle criticism of Israel. Or in other words, Jews were out in numbers to deceive people again, presumably because that’s what these people think that is what Jews do – make up stories about racism to manipulate politics.  This antisemitic mindset was given some legitimacy in many media outlets and given far too much airtime on both the BBC and Sky News

How is it that unacceptable racism is becoming so normalised in a mainstream party and by extension within wider society? Much of the problem is down to ignorance and populist sound-bites, after all, isn’t that how race-hate always spreads?

Conflation

To be an ‘anti’ something, requires a clear definition of what that ‘something’ is. If that explicit understanding does not exist, then a line of ten people opposed to anything, will become a line of ten people opposed to ten different things. Even if they all think they are of the same mind. Such is the issue with anti-Zionism. If you ask most people what being an ‘anti-Zionist’ is, they will reference opposition to Israeli actions in Gaza or the West Bank. That isn’t anti-Zionism. There are Zionists who oppose current Israeli military activity, settlements, Israeli policy in Gaza, social injustice in Israel, Palestinian child prisoners and house demolitions. Discussions over all these issues takes place daily within Israeli society.

Criticism of Israeli policy is not anti-Zionism, nor is it at the heart of the antisemitism problem. This is a myth being spread by those who gain by the conflation. And there is far too much of it about.  This is a perfect example. A disgraceful tweet by an absolute idiot:

Cllr John Edwards Labour Party

Put aside the feelings about John Edwards analysis of the conflict. Edwards has every right to sympathise with Palestinians and to focus on his descriptions would be an unnecessary distraction. Edwards has entirely conflated anti-Zionism with opposition to Israeli actions in Gaza and the West Bank.

So when I complain about racism from people who think Zionists control the world, Edwards’ conflation actually protects that racism. His tweet is instantly popular (because so many are lost in the same game). Edwards may even be a real anti-Zionist, and may personally want to see the Israeli democracy destroyed, but that is not what his tweet says. Whichever way this is played, there is an obvious and clear conflation. Is he someone who supports two states conflating anti-Zionism with criticism of Israeli policy, or is he an anti-Zionist hiding behind criticism of Israeli policy? It is that blurring of the lines, that is a primary reason for the spread of antisemitism into the mainstream.

In his tweet, Edwards is helping racism spread by blaming a minority group who claim to be victims of making it all up.

Far too many people are dismissive of racism, and the phrase ‘anti-Zionism is not antisemitism’ is repeated on mass by people who cannot define either term. What results is a fake anti-Zionism ‘tap-dance’. The dancer makes moves to a tune, neither understanding the notes or the meaning of the tune he is dancing to.

A message to the media

Why do anti-Zionist Jews receive so much media coverage? The biggest offenders seem to be the BBC, but Sky, the Guardian and of course individuals such as James O’Brien at LBC Radio are all serial offenders. O’Brien is one of the worst on air at the moment, because he thinks he can tell the difference, but in reality the combination of his arrogance and his ignorance has a devastating affect.

It doesn’t matter whether there are 6 anti-Zionists who still identify as Jewish (0.002% of the UK Jewish population), 60 (0.02%) 600 (0.2%), or even a highly unlikely 6000 (2%).  We can visibly see by the appearance of the same few faces, the same players in each group, and the FACT that if their material is shared at all, it is shared primarily by non-Jewish Corbyn supporters, that these people simply do not have a community behind them. They represent antisemites far more than they do Jews, and mix with people who share horrific antisemitic material. They do this and with a straight face to camera have said they have never seen any antisemitism. So why are they given so much airtime?

When there clearly is an issue of antisemitism, why do you give a Jewish person a microphone to say there isn’t? Nobody else could fill that role, so should it be filled at all? They do not represent Palestinians, nor do they represent Jews. The only function they have left is to be used by the media as a weapon to goad British Jews. What other justification can there be for Sky, placing an MP like John Mann on TV, sitting opposite someone who because of blind ideology, cannot differentiate antisemitism from cotton candy?

This tiny cult are not responsible for the airtime they are given. They are seasoned campaigners. These people were comfortable in the antisemitic Facebook Group Palestine Live. They have just organised a counter-demonstration to an anti-racist march. Elleanne Green the founder of Palestine Live was even there. This isn’t rocket science. They are weaponsing their Jewish identity to attack Jews. The media are responsible for giving them this platform and for legitimising their argument. And the actions of the British media to date have been a disgrace. Every time I tune in to a news report, I see one of the 93% sitting opposite one of the cult, as if they are equals, smugly suggesting Jewish people are making up claims of racism.

An insult to British Jews

It is a direct insult to the 99.998%, 99.98%, 99.8% or 98% of the Jewish population who are not being represented. More importantly, it is to spit in the face of the 93%+ of Jews who actively disagree with the views of this small cult, and it gives an infusion of adrenaline to antisemites desperate for legitimate cover.

This cult are eerily similar to the Russian communist Yevsektsiya, an arm of the Russian propaganda, who set out to ‘destroy traditional Jewish life’. So what steps have the BBC, Sky, the Guardian and James O’Brien taken to ensure that they are not acting as mouthpieces for such a group? Have they done anything? Or is spirited debate ALWAYS WELCOME when it comes to racism? Will they place far-right people on a chair in their studio, every time there is a victim of anti-black racism or anti-Muslim hatred? How would that be received?

The problem of course is fueled by the deliberate confusion created in conflation. All it takes is one person, one, in a studio, media department, union, school, council session or strategy meeting, to utter the words that ‘anti-Zionism is not the same as antisemitism’, and we are back on that slippery slope. These have become empty terms used by people who do not understand them, that have allowed anti-Jewish racism to become normalised in our society. This mantra is of course promoted and propagated by groups like JVL who benefit for all the confusion they manage to create.

In any normal situation, society would rely on the victims themselves to define what they are and what they see as racism. With Jews that simply is not happening. Instead Jews are being accused of subverting democracy. Haven’t we all been down this road before? Surely now #enoughisenough

 

 

  ———————————————–

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70 thoughts on “Conflation – Labour Party antisemitism is in the details and the media

  1. ‘Anti-Zionists’ object to Jews having national self-determination in their homeland. I am sure there is nothing at all antisemitic about this.

    1. Leah27z,

      One of your most crass comments today. I can assure you the inhabitants of the Holy Lands, now Israeli, who in the majority were Palestinians, would have much to say. I’ll leave it there thank you very much.

      1. >PRAY< tell, How many mosques or Muslims were in JEWISH Jerusalem when JEWISH Jesus walked its streets?

        100? 10? 1? ZERO???

      2. “who in the majority were Palestinians” – ignorant nonsense from an ignorant pillock.

    1. It reminds me of the old joke…….There are just two things the Aussie male is cared of. The female of the species and green tops.

      We could say that there is just one thing David Collier is scared of and that is the JVL. Only fear could inspire such hate.

      1. “green tops”?

        Is that the color of your face after you’ve had one too many Brewskis?

      2. Stephen Sir,

        Am I instructed correctly that Jonathan (Scoffie) Hoffman was present at this demonstration?

            1. Indeed Stephen, it was demanded that the Israeli flags were not openly displayed, although a number of these protestors were attired in cloths displaying Israeli icons – which ain’t illegal I hasten to add.

                1. None of the usual Yellow and Green Hezbola flags…

                  because that would give Laboor/ and Fascist Socialist Workers game away.

    2. You’re projecting again, Stephen – you would love to shut down David Collier’s voice, and David Hirsch’s, and many others, but fortunately you don’t have that power.

        1. If only Alan Dershowitz would grace this Blog with his presence. Imagine that Stephen!

          1. See Chris, the others here don’t see what I do. This is why I won’t respond to you now either. Rather than a polite person pretending to be all about the ‘legal basis’, you are crawling the internet looking for images of me that can be used to smear me. You won’t find one anywhere of me standing with the EDL, or any far-right group because they are not my politics and I cannot stand racism. Anyone who has looked through my own writings, knows I cannot stand racism. You are also wrong when you claim (later in the thread) that I am not affiliated with ANY political group. The affiliation comment is about Zionist organisations and in reference to my independence in my writing. Everyone should know by now that I have been affiliated with the Labour Party, because my politics are moderate left. From where Corbynistas stand, that may seem like the EDL, but hey, that is because your perspective is all screwed up. Finally, your comment that I am a key player behind the Corbyn ‘smear’ is a little off the mark too, I am just one guy with a keyboard and a brain, far more influential people understand the threat Corbynistas pose, and people like Livingstone etc have done far more to smear him than I have. Your description of me as an ‘extreme Zionist’ is ludicrous and quickly highlights that you don’t know what Zionism means. But the bottom line Chris is that you are not all about the law, you are just another hard-left propagandist who looks to smear opponents rather than actually deal with their arguments.
            Chris Rogers part of the crew crawling the internet trying to smear me

            1. Actually David I’ve been instructed who the person is with the dog, and he does bare an uncanny resemblance too you. Given Mr Hoffman is actually associated with this demo with the EDL, and he was at the Westminster Demo about Labour, the 20 Labour MPs present who make grave accusations against Corbyn need to understand all demo’s entice extremists – details of which are being dispatched to all of them. The post you refer too, once and answer was given was promptly removed David once names were available of those pictured.

              1. David,

                I should add my last political grouping was the Green Party as am opposed to warmongers and Labour from 1999-2010 was a warmongering Party.

                1. Scoffie,

                  Unlike you, had I personally witnessed that spectacle in London, namely the open display of an EDL banner, which you are clearly photographed with, I’d have tucked into my pocket, got my lighter fluid out and burned the bloody thing. I don’t stand for UKIP types and certainly don’t stand for the EDL, Britain First and a host of neo-fascist groups that poison the UK body politic.

                  1. and yet you come here and protect Holocaust deniers by attempting to suggest all the people who have a problem with them are doing so to subvert democracy. Isn’t it odd, that I am someone who outs racists, and you are busy going around trying to smear me. Just as you do to Jonathan. Your not interested in racists at all – you are ACTIVELY protecting them. Your hypocrisy is astounding.

                    1. Jonathan’s only issue is self-control, and even then he never goes beyond raising his voice. The entire ‘extremist’ smear against him is poppycock. Just like it is with me. Its an empty and worthless attempts to ridicule and nullify people who catch antisemitism and / or lies told to students on campus. That you are more concerned with smearing a man who raises a poster or raises his voice during a Q&A than you are with stopping the lies or antisemitism says it all.

            2. David,

              And by the way, my enquiry was answered, its believed the person holding the dog is Robert Moore, a bastion of the EDL. And this is the same gathering Jonathan Hoffman was attending and consorting with this group. Now, as you play the guilt by association game, the same must apply to those hurling stones at greenhouses within the PLP. Of course we cannot stop people attending demos of all political stripes, which the 20 Labour Malcontent MPs need to understand and acknowledge.

              1. Hey MORON, You get your knickers in a twist over some blogger, but a Fascist Racist Socialist like Jeremy Corbyn hangin’ at Islamofascist Hezbola rallies doesn’t do the same to ye’?

                You are pathetic and an asset to Pro-Zionists because your racist gurgling gives us ammunition to defeat likes of YOU.

                Happy Nakba!

                “Why did you (JC) call Hamas and Hezbollah your friends?”
                https://www.facebook.com/Channel4News/videos/10153074175846939/

                1. Funny Edward, I don’t hang out with Fascists, although Jonathan Hoffman does, as evidenced by quite a lot of photographic evidence, far more than coincidental. That the one person in that photo is thought to be Robert Moore, who’s big in the EDL says it all. Now, given many opposed to Corbyn wish to find him guilty of many tenuous crimes, most based on very limited associations with certain individuals, be it an 18 word FB exchange, or belonging to a FB Group someone auto-enrolled him in, then the same standards must apply to all those doing the accessing. In the UK that’s called fair play, whether persons like it not. Moral of tale, if you live in a glasshouse don’t throw stones.

                  I won’t make a crass retort to you as your baiting ain’t worth the hassle.

                  1. How many people has the EDL killed?

                    How many people has your and Jeremy’s Hizbola (and Hamass, ISIS, Al Qada, Taliban) killed?

                    A Pox on their and your houses.

                    1. Edward a goodly few of them escaped by the skin of their teeth being extradited re the Brevik thing. A goodly few were closely associated with Victor Vanciers JTF which assasinated an American congressman.

                  2. Chris

                    As I have said before, the left are as bigger fascists a the right

                    You are more than welcome to dispute that, but the intolerance for ideas other than their own that I have always found in the left is the mirror image of what I found in the right

                    Most of my friends have been lefties

                    Iv’e always tried to be non-aligned as the extremes on both sides looked remarkably similar to me.

                    Intolerance being the biggest similarity

                    1. Edward I am not an expert on the US constitution, but my layman’s understanding is that one cannot be both a senator and a congressman at one and the same time. Nor am I an expert on the history of the UK far right, except for the history of the Bored of Deputies and Scoffie and his merry little band. But my understanding is that the EDL post date the assassination of Kennedy by a good few years

              2. Stephen,

                The gathering both Colier and Hoffman attended demonstrating against anti-semitism within the Labour Party was most obviously of a highly politicised nature, it was politicised, because neither David, Hoffman, the Board of Deputies and other assorted voices could bring themselves to state clearly that AS exists in all the UK’s main political parties, but seems conveniently ignored. I wonder why, given David and Hoffman’s alleged intolerance of AS and commitment to combat. Now, we know these facts because another Jewish Anti-Semitism Charity publishes research on this issue, research rather overlooked in the MSM and this blog.

                Alas, Collier claims the Left does not recognise AS within certain members of its ranks – well, if its recorded or expressed it most certainly exists, as it does elsewhere, that its prevalence on the Left is lower than Right leaning groupings is to be welcomed. However, some of us would prefer it to be zero.

                Of course, by not conflating anti-semitism with critiques of Zionism, or critiques of Israeli for abuses the State undertakes in the Occupied Territories, we may get a handle on the prevalence of AS within our ranks and eradicate it.

                Alas, some see legitimate critiques of Zionism, which itself is not solely occupied by Jewish folk, or critiques against Israel and its brutal suppression of discontent within the Palestine community as anti-semitic, this it most certainly is not.

                Anyhow, here’s the CST IJPR Research document published last September – perhaps when Mr Collier, the Labour Party Malcontents and leaders of the Jewish community in the UK call a rally to protest all this AS in all political groupings, I’ll be happy to attend. Until then I remain sceptical, not sceptical of the existence of AS, but sceptical of the motives of all those opposed to Corbyn: https://forward.com/opinion/397667/leave-jeremy-corbyn-alone-hes-the-leader-young-british-jews-have-waited/?gamp&__twitter_impression=true

                  1. Stephen,

                    Your sentiments are well know and openly displayed on your own Blog. However, in your September Blog referencing the Labour Party Conference, the one Collier attended to expose massive degrees of anti-semitism within the Labour rank and file. I do find it rather unusual that he could not be arsed to attend the Conservative Party Conference to expose crass level of anti-semitism and racism within its rank and file – he’d have had a field day. And this sums the whole issue up. In summation, you are correct, Corbyn should stand his ground, particularly, on balance, the UK Left has less instances or racism than the UK Right, which is clearly demonstrated in research.

                    1. liar. Corbyn’s ‘pocket’ of antisemitism doesn’t just contain more instances of antisemitism than anywhere else on the main political spectrum, but he has groups actively defending those racists. People like you.

                    2. David,

                      The latest Report in to anti-semitic sentiments across the UK demonstrates clearly that AS exists and that its prevalence is greater on the Right, specifically the Conservative Party. As such, will you now shine your spot light on the Tories and their membership, which at least would imply some impartiality on your side, instead of only focusing on individuals who express Arab or Palestinian sympathies. Allegedly you wish to stamp AS out, and yet fail to address AS in all groups across all political persuasions, which means you are biased in the extreme. Now, address the conclusions in the document and for a change write something about it: https://cst.org.uk/public/data/file/7/4/JPR.2017.Antisemitism%20in%20contemporary%20Great%20Britain.pdf

                    3. Perfect. The total hypocrisy comes to the front once again. You push the very argument you actually oppose.
                      Why Israel, if there is so much conflict everywhere else, why do you pick on Israel? If there are real abusers of human rights, why do you spend your time attacking the only stable democracy in the Middle East? If I asked you that, you’d accuse me of deflection, or whataboutery and come up with 100 reasons why for you ‘Israel is the thing’ and it is legitimate to focus on it.

                      There is no difference in what you just did to me. You are a liar and a hypocrite.

                    4. Well they don’t care how much antisemitism there is in the Tory Party. The leadership is sound on Israe. That is all that matters.

                1. Chris

                  This rally was specifficaly about Antisemitism in the Labour Party

                  It did not claim to be anyrhing other than about Antisemitism in the Labour Party

                  Because you have a problem with Jews and their lived experience, you try to belittle and demonise whatever Jews do.

                  Your polirical viewd are prevalent today , because that is what political correctness demands

                  Reading your comments, and being aware of what was politically correct in the 1930s’, I wonder what your view of Jews would have been then.

                  Methinks your views then would have been the majority view; and that was anti-Jewish in much the same way as the left is anti-Jewish today.

                  1. Gabler,

                    When it comes to gross hypocrisy you really do take the biscuit. Again, we’ll just discount actual verifiable Research that has been undertaken for years, namely the L. Daniel Staetsky JPR/CST Report and just kick Labour.

                    Again, please go and read the latest Jewdas Blog post, link posted elsewhere on this forum, for the shear degree of hypocrisy on display. However, please don’t try and pull the wool over the average Joe’s eyes, the truth is very much out there and persons can make their own informed assessments.

                    My comment stands and withstands scrutiny based on the empirical evidence. And if you don’t like the evidence, that ain’t my fault as I did not issue the Report.

                    1. Chris

                      What has hypocracy got to do with this discusion.

                      You constantly level charges of hypocracy as an attempt to smother other views other than the politically correct lefty view you constantly portray.

                      I tend to think of you and your ilk as ‘lefty liberal neo-fascists’ because of your intolerance of any ideas other than your own.

                      The more you post here, the more your views skew into that grey area that poseurs like yourself adopt; the blaming of the victim for the wrongs and crimes perpetrated against them.

                      There is very little point in engaging with you as you never reply to specific questions and you quote fringe groups like ‘jewdas’ as mainstream community organisations etc.

                      You are not here to further discussion; rather you are here to sow discord; as I said to Mike, I respond against the anti-Jewish, racist rhetoric of some posters here to offer an alternative view to those who may not understand the whole picture as it relates to the majority of Jews in the UK and the diaspora

                    2. Galber,

                      I see you are having a go at Jewdas, and their most recent post, the irony in your response is its exactly the behaviour the author was discussing, namely an apparent totalitarianism at the heart of the community, or its supposed representatives thereof.

                    3. Chris

                      I am someone who fights against racism. You don’t attack the racists you attack me. You are clearly obsessed about it. Despite not being Jewish, you use a handful of outliers (the exception – rule deflection), to suggest Jewish people don’t know what being Jewish is. You’ve actually scoured photos trying to smear me in any way you can. All you do is try to belittle the work of someone who fights against hard-core antisemitism. It doesn’t paint a pretty picture.

    3. Isn’t it odd. People who help to spread antisemitism, and you don’t get why such a group would be placed under my spotlight.

        1. Stephen

          If Davids spotlight is irrelevant, why do you expend so much of your time trying to debunk what he says.

          Do you have some concealed intention;
          Do you have a malign intent
          Your comments seem to have become a little malicous of late
          An element of animus has crept in

          I would like to ask if you dislike Jews or hold negative views about Jews.
          If you don’t like Jews you are perfectly entitled to that sentiment.
          I would just like to know

          1. Richard, generally I am not keen on people working to roll back my hard won civil liberties in the service of a foreign power. It does seem that in the last few years a disproportionate number of them are Jewish.

            1. Nobody is in the ‘service’ of a foreign power. That’s an awful claim. Get back in your box

            2. Stephen

              You have said it
              Thank you
              We Jews are in thrall to a foreign power
              Accusations of dual loyalty against Jews has been one of the staples employed against Jews

              So to add one more question to the list of unanswered questions by you
              Where and in what manner are Jews trying to roll back your civil liberties.
              Your failure to answer this question will place you firmly within that camp that has a particular name that dare not be mentioned; I prefer the term anti-Jewish racists.
              I asked earlier on if you dislike Jews,and I do believe from the above comment of yours that you do harbour a dislike of Jews; especially if they argue back and disagree with your narrative.
              I really don’t mind if you don’t like Jews as it your prerogative to do so; I just like to know who doesn’t like me so I can tailor my argument to suit.

              Thank you for showing your true colours though

              1. The Foreign Powers that has the UK in its grips are mainstream Fascist Socialism and Islamofascism.

                Even Jeremy Corbyn and his Laboor Party are in thrall with those Foreign Powers.

                1. He’s right Richard. We got bored of beating the arabs so we’ve re-allocated millions from our annual espionage budget to Operation Don’t-Let-Bellers-Be. We think it’s going quite well.

  2. Counter Chant this ditty…

    From the River to the Sea,
    Pal-e-STINE Will Never Be!

  3. Anti-Terrorism isn’t the same as Anti-Palestinianism or Anti-Islamofascism – or is it?

    Consider 9/11, London’s 7/7 attacks, Pan Am 103 bombing, London bridge and Westminster bridge attacks, Boston Marathon bombing, beheading of British soldier Lee Rigby (on the streets of London), beheading of journalist Daniel Pearl, stabbing to death of filmmaker Theo Van Gogh, death threats against writer Salman Rushdie, death threats against Danish cartoonists, Assassination of US Senator and Democrat Party Presidential candidate hopeful Robert F. Kennedy, attack on the 1972 Olympics, Manchester concert hall bombing, thwarted sneaker and underwear bombers of inflight passenger planes, Charlie Hebdo office massacre, Bataclan music hall massacre, Nice France Bastille Day truck jihad, Beslan elementary school massacre, Mumbai India attacks, Nairobi Kenya mall attacks, Rotherham rape gangs, Madrid train bombings, Bali tourist attack, Luxor Egypt tourist attack, Orlando Florida nightclub massacre, San Bernardino attack, Fort Hood massacre, thwarted Garland Texas attack, DC Beltway sniper (terrorist was justly executed), 1993 truck bombing of the WTC, Times Square SUV attack, Manhattan bike path jihad, Chelsea Manhattan bombing, Empire State building shooting, Brooklyn Bridge shooting, murder of Coptic Christians in Egypt, church bombings in Pakistan, murder of an 84 year old Jewish woman in Paris by a savage islamofascist beast…

    If Israel was the problem, then Muslims would be living in peace with NON-Israelis, NON-Zionists, NON-Jews all over the World, but are they???? Consider the above.

    1. David I refuse to interact with the Left wing anti-Jewish racists on your site, any more. These haters are an irrelevance who only turn up to abuse and jew-bait. If enough of us just ignore them then they will eventually go off and rejoin the ‘Throw the Jew down the well’ Facebook group or whatever other antisemitic cess-pit they use to spread their Jew hatred. Really don’t know what the difference is between a Rightist that wants to gas the Jews and a Leftist that wants the Arabs to drown Jews in the Mediterranean!!!!

      1. How about a “Throw the Jew Hater down the Well” Facebook gorup?

        I’d like to see some pig try to gas a Jew holding an Uzi with lots of ammo and good people beside them.

  4. Yes but Yevsektsiya Jews is more recent and thereby more relevant. The Jewdas wannabe bad boys and girls are in the same vein but carry less weight. Legends in their own imagination and simply unknown outside of their hipster minions. Their moderation policy closely follows that of jfjfp ie fascist and humourless unless it’s their own brand of tiresome joke. Geoffrey would be proud of them #nebbachs

  5. Tweet of the week.

    David Osland

    ” Time was The Sunday Times did serious investigative journalism. The thalidomide scandel. Israel’s nuclear weapons. Now its moonbats talking crap on facebook.”

    Koff

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