The university campus is becoming ever more increasingly hostile to both Jews and Israel. From what I have witnessed and experienced, I believe it is no side effect, but rather part of a deliberate and well planned strategy. We are witnessing an entryist operation.
In March, in the period around ‘Israeli Apartheid week’, I attended an impressive one-day conference at the London School of Economics. It was jointly organised by ‘Olive’, ‘FOSIS’, and ‘Friends of Al Aqsa’. The event, was titled ‘from Johannesburg to Jerusalem’. One of the speakers at the event was Max Blumenthal, who apparently got on stage to create conspiracy theories, compare Israel to ISIS and to praise Hamas.
The university pull factor
During the day, there were two workshops. One that was of particular interest to me, went about explaining how to create and promote BDS campaigns on campus. The strategy was broken down into 7 parts. The most important was persuading your university to create a scholarship for Palestinians. This is what was said:
“The Best people to lead a group or society on campus are Palestinians. There is no one that can articulate better to you the realities of occupation and who can make that argument better than Palestinians. To get Palestinians on campus, from the Gaza Strip, from the West Bank and from Israel what you need is to convince your university in setting up scholarships. Right, and that requires lobbying, and that requires organising and actually that can also come in the form of fundraising every year.
At Sheffield we get a fee waiver ever year on a Palestinian student. Right, and then we have to fundraise for accommodation and living. Although actually now the university pay for that as well, but originally we had to. But what that actually meant was you could build up long relationships with academics who pay standing orders and other things and you build up a network of individuals for contributing towards your scholarship”
You can listen to the instruction here:
So that is the ‘pull’ factor. I am sure that when they lobby the university for the scholarship, they plead humanitarian concern. They push the necessity of saving the student from the ‘oppressive and brutal occupation’. In reality they are lobbying to persuade the university to finance their political cause. Whichever way you consider this, people on this side are actively seeking new recruits from ‘Palestine’ to promote BDS. Then asking the university to pay for it.
The university push factor
But I wondered at the time about the ‘push’. Who are these students? A Palestinian student from Gaza who makes the application, is he merely a lucky applicant who is given a life changing opportunity? Or is there a ‘push’ factor, where Palestinian movements have created a network carefully selecting potential candidates, assisting them in their application and training them prior to their departure?
It would be an astonishing miss if this is not the reality. The Palestinian cause on this side is desperate to lobby for the scholarship. They have a specific goal in mind. Are they going to do all this work, go to all this trouble, only to find they end up with a Palestinian who isn’t capable of presenting their case? Consider Gaza, given Hamas has control over the propaganda there. Are Hamas selecting or filtering the applicants? Are our university funds being used to further the Hamas cause?
Meet ‘Hazem Alzatma’. Hazem wants to study at Swansea University. Hazem is from Rafah in Gaza and he has apparently applied for a scholarship at Swansea.
If you hyphenate his surname and replace the ‘A’ with an ‘E’, you find out Hazem is also a freelance translator. You also find he is an online activist. Sometimes he just drops the ‘Al’ and the hyphen altogether. This is Hazem Zatma’s Google page. Hazem raised £170 using online crowdfunding towards his Swansea University education under the captivating title of “Send Refugee to University For Masters”. According to a site called ‘translator scammers‘ Hazem tends to change his name quite frequently.
The problem however, is far larger than one name-changing translator from Rafah.
Rawan Yaghi was a student at Gaza’s Islamic University, she won a scholarship to Oxford University to study linguistics and Italian. The BBC ran a story about how ‘students at Oxford’s Jesus College will pay some of the cost of Rawan’s studies’. Mondeweiss also ran a story about how Rawan was a Mondeweiss contributor. Rawan also ran a blog called ‘weresist‘. You can also see her in a video promoting #BDS. No surprise then, that in a recent interview Rawan suggested “she is planning to be involved in the BDS campaign.” The person who organised the campaign to assist in Rawan’s scholarship funding was activist Emily Dreyfus. Both Daphne Anson and BBC Watch picked up this story at the time.
We clearly have an example here of an activist in the UK, bringing over an activist Palestinian, who then furthers the ‘Palestinian cause’ once her position her was secured. This was described as a deliberate strategy in the workshop at the LSE, but is it systemic?
Full circle
Meet Malaka Mohammed in 2013. Malaka, from Gaza, has been given a scholarship by Sheffield University. Malaka raised almost £5,000 towards additional expenses. Whilst still at university in Gaza Malaka successfully implemented the first BDS (boycotts, divestments and sanctions) campaign. Clearly an activist, she is now on her way to Sheffield. The same university of course specifically mentioned in the workshop I participated in. The one that was persuaded to provide a scholarship to Palestinians to promote BDS.
Now meet Malaka in 2014, just one year later. There is a workshop called ‘Confronting Israeli Apartheid: Building the Student Movement for Palestine’ taking place at the University of Sheffield. Like the one I attended, this is about spreading BDS on campus. Malaka, who is now ‘Education Officer at Sheffield University Students’ Union’, is one of the speakers. Her topic includes ‘Palestine scholarship campaigns’. Malaka has come full circle.
Standing next to Malaka on the platform was Goldsmiths’ then education officer Sarah El-alfy, best remembered for leading the campaign to reject a holocaust memorial day. Another on the platform was Juman Asmail, a Palestinian student activist from the university of Southampton. Juman co-founded Southampton Students for Palestine. She was also instrumental in breeding discomfort across the UK Jewish community as one of the driving forces behind the failed anti-Israel conference at Southampton.
Not just Sheffield
The university of Durham has a page dedicated to the ‘Durham Palestine Educational Trust’. It lists those students granted scholarships in recent years. Diana Alzeer was there until 2013. Prior to her arrival Diana was already an activist and co-produced a video diary called Sleepless in Gaza and Jerusalem. In 2013 she appeared in a Palestine Solidarity Campaign event at SOAS. Nada Nabris is from the same year group, and along with Alzeer promoted Palestinian activism on campus and raised money to pay for further scholarships. Others such as Tahani Abu Shaban, also raised money for the same cause, whilst Tahani’s Twitter page leaves no doubt about her sentiments:
Tahani worked with Hamas infested UNRWA in Gaza, but what is suspicious is that her Twitter feed became active on the subject of the conflict, in English, just a few months before she arrived in the UK. This provides some indication that some of the students may be being primed in Gaza *before* they leave. And just so Durham class of 2014 isn’t left out, the entire group, Basma Al Hadad, Saba Fadda and Reem Jodeh can be seen protesting the conflict and pushing BDS on their local high street:
All over the country
I spent much of February going to events that demonised Israel and pushed BDS. In *all* of these events there were Palestinian students, many of them over here on scholarships. Many of these students are now doing the job that they were expected to do. Furthering the cause, creating a case so that even more Palestinian scholarships can be created. This isn’t about one or two universities anymore. At St Andrews they began a scholarship program for Palestinians called STEPS. They welcomed their first student in about 2012, and by 2013 they were cancelling pro-Israeli events because of protests. There are scores of universities that receive indirect funding through outlets such as the ‘Said Foundation‘ – Birmingham, Cambridge, East Anglia, Essex, Exeter, Glasgow, Goldsmiths, Kings, UCL, Leeds, Leicester, LSE, Loughborough, Nottingham, Oxford, Oxford Brookes, Holloway, SOAS, Southampton, Sussex and Warwick. There are also the HESPAL Scholarships, 22 each year, spread across the UK. The list is almost endless.
Kings, the university now remembered for the violent protest against a meeting about Jewish peace initiatives, has KCL Action Palestine, who like good BDS activists, “succesfully achieved a scholarship system for a Palestinian student in 2008“. Or take Amal Nazzal at Exeter. She arrived on a HESPAL scholarship. Now she teaches at Exeter and includes BDS examples in a lecture during a marketing module. This particularly unethical method of subliminal conditioning is widespread. Whilst I was at Birkbeck, the Lecturer in Law, a BDS activist, used Gaza protests as one of the examples we needed to study in the section on police powers. Nazzal also writes on the conflict at outlets such as Middle East Monitor She writes of ‘Israeli colonisation and apartheid’ and is now free to lecture a whole generation of British students. A clear victory for the BDS strategy.
This isn’t an exercise in careful selection. I could have expanded this research from days into weeks. Uncovering more and more evidence under almost every single stone. This is blatant BDS strategy that they openly advertise and propagate. Consider this, almost every NGO contacted in the exercise about the safety in ‘Palestine’, instructed the volunteers how to behave when they returned home. There are information booklets given to ex-volunteers about how to become an activist. Does anyone really believe, that those Palestinians awarded scholarships do not undergo similar instruction. Or taking it to a level higher, that those best suited for international activism are not actually pushed towards scholarships? These students are highly politicised and many come as soldiers on a mission. They walk into a university campus that is simply not prepared or capable of dealing with them. There is no comparable ‘opposing army’.
This is a strategic infiltration of our academic space. Why is there so much money being invested in one specific nationality, when clearly, there are far more deserving cases worldwide? Worse still, these scholarships, if utilised by activists *contribute to a worsening and deepening of the conflict*. Is it a coincidence that so many of these scholarships are being awarded to students who were already activists before they came? These students most certainly contribute to a deteriorating situation within the UK. How many, just how many, of the Palestinian students standing up on campus, pushing propaganda, alienating the British Jewish students and demonising the only free state in the entire Middle East, are here on scholarships? How many? And this isn’t just in the UK. If this is BDS strategy, it is happening everywhere.
The government has a duty to act
I have nothing against the students or scholarships set up to further student education and opportunity. However, the government has clearly stated it believes there is a connection between BDS activity and antisemitism on campus and that BDS ‘undermines good community relations‘. We can now see there is a deliberate and intricate network that intends to bring foreign students over to the UK with the intent to create such an atmosphere on campus and strengthen BDS. We also know that they chase university funding under the flag of humanitarian concern. These scholarships are funding antisemitism.
These students are not British, and they are being imported with the specific aim of increasing the strain on community relations. Their actions fuel the rise in antisemitism against UK Jewry. The government has a clear duty to act quickly to protect its own citizens. Therefore, this practice has to be stopped. The government has to intervene to ensure that it does. If humanitarian concern is the primary purpose behind these scholarships, then simply suggest that whilst they are here they should refrain from political activity that unsettles UK citizens, such as BDS. Make it a condition of their sponsorship. After all, if education is really the primary goal, why would anyone object to such a proposal?
Follow, like, donate
Keep up to date, subscribe to the blog by using the link on the page. Follow the FB page for this blog: and follow me on Twitter. Please if you can, also consider making a small donation. Research is expensive and time consuming and whilst I do what I can, there are serious constraints that impact on what is possible.
An excellent bit of researching, David Collier. Kol HaKavod. There are two things I’d suggest you rethink. Using the term “invasion” is really not accurate for what you’re describing and because of its connotations of military attack and conquest leaves you open to discrediting.
What I think we have here is an infiltration and entryist operation, in which radical extremist activists, selected for their language and demagogic skills are put forward as ordinary students there to improve their education. In fact it is an entryist operation designed to ensure, as you point out, that British universities are targeted one by one for the installation of radical extremist agitators with a mission to promote not just BDS but exterminationist political narratives about Israel, and to ensure that “Zionist” students are silenced and Israeli co-operation and study is harassed and where feasible made impossible. An advanced aim is then to ensure the students can be installed as tenured staff from which to continue this work.
It has been remarkably successful, and it has been going on for a long time. I know it was in action in 2005, because one of the main promoters of the notorious AUT Boycott Israel motion of that year was just such a “sponsored Palestinian student”–actually a member of a notorious terrorist linked clan– was one of the leaders of the Birmingham AUT group, more publicly associated with Sue Blackwell, who put the motion up.
However, you’ve left out the two key sources of funding and infiltration assistance that I’m aware of.
The first is the trade union movement. All the ones linked to the Palestine Solidarity Campaign either sponsor or support the infiltration of these students. I know that the AUT and NATFHE as they then were were supporting such sponsored studentships. Th e UCU and NUT are likely to be prominent in this process.
Secondly — there is HM Government, unfortunately. There is a Foreign Office scholarships programme done under the name of promoting peace which has included just such terror group supporter media activists and similar for post grad scholarships to the UK. So one of the journalists on the viciously anti Israel +972 magazine,, Dimi Reider, was selected as the Israeli partner, along with a Palestinian presumably nominated by Fatah to be funded by the FO for a year’s postgrad study. In Reider’s case, it may have been at LSE.
There is also the lovely sounding Olive Tree programme at City University– I don’t know if it exists or not now, but which had Prof Stephen Miller and Prof Colin Shindler, both Peace Now linked picking students for a programme funded by a Gulfie Sheikh. All presented as a Peace Initiative. Closer examination of who got these scholarships is likely to show that those chosen were far from being ordinary students or peace campaigners.
So what to do? Firstly find out more about Foreign Office funding of such people on scholarships.
This is another example of British and EU aid for so called promotion of peace and Palestinian society building. Send relevant examples to the Daily Mail.
Get more info on the inflammatory activities of those given scholarships and their backgrounds and send it to your MP, to Jo Johnson HE Minister and to Sir Eric Pickles. Ask your MP to push to ensure that TU funding of radical activist campaigns is stopped under the Prevent programme. Check to see if any organization with charitable status is involved in selecting and supporting the infiltration of these radical entryists. If they are, complain to the Charity Commission.
Thank you, David Collier, once again for your meticulous and heroic work on this front. But please, please don’t call infiltration and entryism and invasion.
Thank you Judy. I do take your comments about the use of the word ‘invasion’ on board. I cannot remove it entirely, but I will reduce the number of times it is used and replace it with the more suitable examples you gave. Thanks also for the additional information. I will follow up. BUT ************ You sent alarm bells ringing with the 2005 AUT… It might be the missing link I am looking for in another piece of research. Do you have details…esp, the Palestinian student’s name and so on…anything you can give me.
(edited to add that I have removed the word invasion from the body of the text. credit should go to you…)
Unsettling and untiring writing as always. In addition I really appreciate your and Judy’s grown up and knowledgable conversation at the end. Thank you.
Thank you , as always , for this excellent research David. We need to bring more information like this to relevant members of Government , individual MPs etc. The information needs to be widely shared . Do you know whether there are any comparable scholarships available for needy Israelis or any minorities such as Christians, Druze , Caucasians within Israeli or Middle East societies?
Loretta, there are some scholarships available, but nothing comparable in quantity or resources. The numbers actually are quite remarkable, considering the population size and the fact that as far as ‘oppression’ goes, there are scores of nations more worthy. This however is not the main problem. When you speak of others, we are not talking equals. An Israeli who comes to study, primarily does so to study. Jewish students from the UK who go to uni, do so to study. Some might pick up the cause of activism along the way, but there primary designation is not that of a soldier. My fear is, and the reason this needs deeper research, is that there may actually be an organised pipeline and that those who come here are trained in what they do. Have you noticed how many of these 1st year students on scholarship from ‘Palestine’ are running for positions in student councils? Who does that? Who goes to a strange land, in a place without a native tongue, and automatically jumps into politics? There is something deeply troubling, like a template exists….
I fully agree. There is undoubtedly a planned strategy here and even more research needed to expose the facts Thank you
You’re, unfortunately, overstating the case but it is definitely good news that not everyone thinks of the palestinians as sub-human as the bigoted zionists would declare.
Stating palestinians have the same human rights as israelis, or as zionists view them, ‘jews’, is not bigotry. It is the exact opposite of bigotry.
Bigotry is declaring they haven’t.
IOW, this article is stupendously bigoted. As are all pro-zionist articles.
But then, you have to be so filled with bigotry and contempt for humanity to be a zionist it doesn’t actually surprise me that you people are so incredibly dumb that you don’t comprehend that the israeli regime do not consider it ‘jew’ vs ‘muslim’ but ‘jew’ vs ‘gentile’.
And most zionists are gentiles, they are supporting their own enemies.
Thank you for your comment Colin. You’re wrong about me, but then judging by your comment you are wrong about most things. You didn’t address the actual research of course, you merely came to throw a few stones at ‘Zionists’. In doing so you highlight your ignorance, both of Zionism and Israel. ‘You have to be so filled with bigotry and contempt for humanity to be a Zionist’. My word. I can’t help you in that you have swallowed too much propaganda, too many lies, to be ‘salvagable’. I’d give you a few books to read to gain some balance, but as part of a cult, you have already decided that anything that doesn’t agree with you is zionist propaganda anyway. At least I hope I made you feel better by letting you get some of your ‘pure hatred’ off of your chest.
Hmm, so ‘zionist’ as the christian and jew practitioners of the belief maintain is the belief that ‘jews’, (a term undefined), have the right to drive gentiles from ‘the holy land’, (again, a term without clear definition), but is not bigoted in any way?
Or do you have a different definition of ‘zionism’? One that is different to, for example, netanyahu who declares ‘no one can tell jews they are not allowed to build in judea and samaria’? When doing so can only be justified by stating all palestinians have no human rights. (The law, that israel signed up to in 1949, states that israelis cannot build in palestine. ‘Jews’ is completely irrelevant to the law concerned.)
So please answer me a very simple question:
Are you prepared to state that palestinians have the same right to self defence as israelis?
(I know my MP absolutely refuses to do so, whether because he is extraordinarily bigoted or in the pocket of the extraordinarily bigoted israel lobby is unclear.)
Colin, what does that even mean ‘ the same right to self defence’? Are you suggesting I have a right to defend ‘my land’ by killing immigrants? Are right wing residents of Bradford that feel disenfranchised, now entitled to go on a killing spree because their ‘homes’ and ‘jobs’ have been ‘stolen’? Sounds a little bit right wing fascist to me. Or do you have another way of explaining the riots that began to kill Jews as early as 1920?
The internationalised conflict strategy (BDS) is a method designed to give the Arabs statehood whilst at the same time maintaining the conflict with the other party (Israel). The best way forward was always that both sides recognise the rights of the other, thus ending the conflict. Until one side (that is the Arab side) can drop the demands it makes over Israel, the conflict will endure. All BDS does is create additional hardship on everyone, like all extremist strategies, it is designed to bring war, not defer it. Within this window, extremists (yes, Israeli ones too) act in ways that complicate and entrench even further the war-footing. That those promoting ‘boycott’ actually think they are doing something ‘beneficial’ is farcical.
“Why is there so much money being invested in one specific nationality, when clearly, there are far more deserving cases worldwide? ”
Because our leaders are not openly complicit in the mass torture and murder of children regarding other nationalities.
‘mass torture and murder of children’. If you are going to come and argue, can you drop the hyperbole. Do you know how many people have been killed, on both sides, military and civilian, from every nation, during the entire 100 years of the Israeli/Arab wars?
How many people died in Syria in the last year alone?
Get a grip.
>>>If you are going to come and argue, can you drop the hyperbole.
If it’s a fact, and it is, then why do you call it ‘hyperbole’?
Do you condemn the israeli lie that the palestinians fighting back against the occupation forces in their own country are ‘terrorists’ as hyperbole?
I don’t support the people in syria killing civilians, neither do you.
I don’t support the people in israel who systematically kill and torture children by the hundred, but you do.
This is the difference, and if you got a grip you would grasp that.
I clearly have a better grasp of history than you do. Take a snapshot of the situation in Germany in late 1944 and tell me who the good guys are. Your methodology is flawed.
This organization seems to be a hub of this initiative: http://www.palestinesolidarity.org/aboutus.htm
It would be surprising if the UK were the only country where the universities are being targeted by this kind of ‘colonization’ or ‘infiltration’ (or perhaps ‘Psy Ops’?) by this movement to demonize Israel. I have read somewhere online that the BDS-promoting, antisemitic, and sometimes violent group ‘Students for Justice in Palestine’ (SJP) operating in the US is covertly funded by the PA. Not sure how accurate that report is. Somebody with more time than I have should research in that direction. A quick google search reveals:
In Germany: http://www.kas.de/palaestinensische-gebiete/en/pages/14744/
In France: http://www.european-funding-guide.eu/scholarship/2491-french-government-scholarships-palestinian-students
In Turkey: http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/turkey-offers-scholarships-palestinian-students
>>>Are you suggesting I have a right to defend ‘my land’ by killing immigrants?
WTF?! Are you SO clueless about the situation that you class the israeli occupation force as ‘immigrants’?! THEY ARE INVADERS!!
International law is very, very clear. Every palestinian has an absolute right to kill israelis in palestinian territory because the israeli presence in palestine is a ‘belligerent occupation’, (Israel’s words, not mine.)
Just as the french population had the absolute right to kill the german occupiers in WWII, do you call them ‘terrorists’?
Israel is waging war on the palestinians by the very nature of the occupation, that is what an occupation is. When you wage war on a people they have the right to fight back,
But you REALLY do believe that it is the palestinians waging war on the israelis don’t you?
Simple facts:
Israel is occupying palestine, this is according to the israeli regime themselves
An occupation is a continual waging of war
So israel should not be surprised when the palestinians fight back, although they pretend to be and complete fools truly believe that israel, the occupier, is the aggressor, a ridiculous claim.
>>Or do you have another way of explaining the riots that began to kill Jews as early as 1920?
Irrelevant to the situation although I agree that religion is a despicable thing in that it encourages intolerance
>>>The internationalised conflict strategy (BDS) is a method designed to give the Arabs
>>>statehood whilst at the same time maintaining the conflict with the other party (Israel).
In what way would forcing israel to accept peace maintain the conflict?
>>>The best way forward was always that both sides recognise the rights of the other,
>>>thus ending the conflict.
Palestine recognised Israel in 1993, israel has yet to recognise palestine and spits the dummy out of the pram when other nations do.
I’m interested to know what you define as the ‘rights’ of israel though!
>>>All BDS does is create additional hardship on everyone
Absolutely not true, its primary purpose is to give israel the message that no matter how much they bribe the governments the people can still make it clear that their actions are absolutely unacceptable.
And the primary way in which BDS hurts the palestinians is the terrorism inflicted upon them by the israelis in the hope that they can make it stop. Many people and nations are willing to invest in palestine, but israel has a policy of bulldozing, or carpet bombing, such progress.
>>>it is designed to bring war, not defer it.
Again, WTF?!!! How can a strategy intended to force israel to accept peace by ending their profiteering from war be designed to bring war? If israel cannot exploit the land and resources of palestine without international penalty what reason do they have to continue the war?
Only by allowing israel to continue to profit from the ongoing war are you encouraging the war to continue.
>>>Until one side (that is the Arab side) can drop the demands it makes over Israel
Go on then, what ‘demands’ are these? That israel go back to israel and get their occupation forces out of lands they have no right to? That they honour the promise they made in 1949 in order to be accepted into the UN as a civilised nation? Those are the two main ‘demands’ that zionists declare are unacceptable.
>>>That those promoting ‘boycott’ actually think they are doing something ‘beneficial’ is farcical.
That those who condemn the refusal to support the criminal colonies in palestine as a ‘farce’ have no idea just how extraordinarily bigoted they are.
FYI, I consider the israeli tactic of using pregnant women, mothers and children and old people as members of their occupation forces in palestine to be utterly despicable.
Do you?
>>and complete fools truly believe that israel, the occupier, is the aggressor, a ridiculous claim.
No edit function on this board! That should have read:
“and complete fools truly believe that israel, the occupier, is the victim, a ridiculous claim.”
You are just shouting randomly, ignoring the very simply point I made from the last post.
You want to create an argument on your terms. You build a strawman and want to argue about it.
Keep to the basics, you might learn something.
The people who were murdered by Arabs in 1920 were ‘invaders’? Really?
Let us set aside completely the argument over Jewish history.
Are all immigrants into the UK ‘invaders’?
You seem to be arguing I have a right to walk out today and start killing them
Are you?
Do I?
>>>The people who were murdered by Arabs in 1920 were ‘invaders’? Really?
Again, WTF are you blathering about?!
What the hell has events of nearly a century ago got to do with your refusal to admit that the palestinians have the right to defend themselves against their invaders here and now?!
Hey, tell you what! Let’s start babbling about the slaughter of jews at the coronation of King Richard the First! Let’s see who can be most irrelevant!
>>>Let us set aside completely the argument over Jewish history.
Probably a good idea for you!
>>>Are all immigrants into the UK ‘invaders’?
No,
Are all israelis in palestine invaders?
Yes.
>>>You seem to be arguing I have a right to walk out today and start killing them
>>>Are you?
>>>Do I?
You seem to be getting confused about the difference between me flying over here from my nation of birth when I was 11 with my parents as an immigrant and a bloody great army of tanks, fighters, gunmen and artillery descending on the country and taking control in a campaign of destruction and murder as an invasion.
Invasion is not immigration in the same way that cruise liners are not battleships.
So it is a very, very weird twist of mind that states that the international law that states that an invaded nation can defend itself with force against its invaders means you can kill me.
You seem to be saying history isn’t relevant whilst at the same time depending on history to make your entire case. It is a highly selective system you have. If 1920 is not relevant, then 1948 isn’t relevant. Nor is 1949. That ends the claim of the ‘Palestinian refugees’. I am not sure they will be so happy with you discarding the ‘right of return’ they claim with a simple ‘WTF’ – ‘What the hell has events of nearly a century ago got to do with it’
Some of the Israelis you call invaders, have been living in that land longer than those you believe to have been invaded. How does that work? You are wasting my time with empty statements and rehashed propaganda . Either make a coherent case or leave me alone.
>>>If 1920 is not relevant,
Do tell me what is relevant about 1920
>>>then 1948 isn’t relevant. Nor is 1949
If 1948 is not relevant then israel isn’t a country
If 1949 is not relevant then there is no such thing as law.
Historical agreements are not the same thing as history.
>>>That ends the claim of the ‘Palestinian refugees’.
And the claim of israel to be a nation. But why have you put quotes around your reference to the palestinian refugees? Do you actually deny the reality of the fact that they were ethnically cleansed by your beloved zionists?
>>>Some of the Israelis you call invaders, have been living in that land
>>>longer than those you believe to have been invaded.
AH! I see your confusion. When I say ‘palestine’ I mean modern day palestine, not the palestine of 1920. I am talking about the absolute, legal, right of modern day palestinians to fight back against the israelis that are holding their lands in belligerent occupation.
I considered this self evident but even if it wasn’t I referenced ‘israelis’ who never existed between 722BCE and 1948CE. So referencing them at the time of 1920CE would be a farce.
There has not been an israeli living legally in what is now palestinian territory for over 2700 years!
>>>How does that work?
It doesn’t, you’re talking absolute nonsense.
>>>You are wasting my time with empty statements and rehashed propaganda .
The fact that reality doesn’t match with your delusions is not an argument.
>>>Either make a coherent case or leave me alone.
I have, start thinking coherently or accept you will never be taken seriously.
you need to be clearer, because you keep moving in diagonals, you contradict yourself and have already referenced all Israelis as invaders. You have also now referenced international law. Can we move to basics. Are we both in agreement then that Israel is a legitimate state, that the Israelis within the internationally recognised borders are all citizens of that state and that therefore, the Israeli state does possess the right to defend itself as all states do.
Or are you being selective about which international laws your adhere to?
>>>I clearly have a better grasp of history than you do. Take a snapshot of the situation in
>>>Germany in late 1944 and tell me who the good guys are. Your methodology is flawed.
WTF?! I REALLY don’t grasp what you’re saying.
Best guess, the fact that the zionists left the jews to die in their millions to strengthen their hand in negotiating for israel means that israelis can now torture and murder children by the hundred and still be classed as the good guys?!
You have no grasp of history at all. The holocaust was driven by the nazi bestiality but was used by the zionists to create a massive death toll of jews to gain sympathy.
Hitler was more than happy to let the jews leave for a fee.
The zionist leadership response?
“”We are writing to remind you of the one factor of which you must never lose sight: that ultimately, the Allies will win the war. After their victory, territorial boundaries will be reshaped, as they were after the First World War. Then, the way will be clear for our purpose. At this time, with the war drawing to a close, we must do everything in our power to change Eretz Yisroel into Medinat Yisrael and many steps have already been taken in this regard.”
Google it.
But the fact that you are supporting the systematic torture and murder of children by the hundred is despicable.
If you think you are somehow making a strong argument you are sorely mistaken. This the latest, is particularly gruesome. BTW Googling that letter, lands you on some pretty nasty websites, I do hope that you have not become so blinded by hatred that you actually spend time in any of those. Once again you try to direct the argument into a narrative you feel comfortable with. It does highlight you are uncomfortable with the historical events that occurred and know little about them.
This time your point seems to be that Hitler was willing to let the Jews go and the Zionists didn’t want to negotiate. Therefore the Zionists are as bad if not worse than the nazis. It is fascinating how such a position develops. The other one you could use is that some within the Zionist movements also did deals to get Jews out. So on other sites you will see Zionists slandered for ‘collaborating’ with the Nazis. Google it.
Because that is the way of this discussion. You use ‘Zionist’ as if it is a singular. You then take those that slaughtered the Jews and work both ways. Either the Zionists refused to deal or dealt, whichever way those Jews turn as their brethren are gassed works for you doesn’t it. So they cannot win. This as in reality many of these people are also just survivors from one persecution or another, if not from the very slaughter you wish to slander threm about. Sick really. The newly arrived refugee, the one escaping Nazi brutality catching the disease the moment he steps on the land.
Sorry if I am not swept away by your logic.
>>>BTW Googling that letter, lands you on some pretty nasty websites,
Googling 9/11 lands you on some pretty nasty sites. Does that mean it didn’t happen? That’s it all made up?
That letter was confirmed as genuine in 1957 by the israeli supreme court. And I have no doubt it is true that the zionists cared far more about taking land in palestine than the plight of the jews.
“If I knew that it would be possible to save all the children in Germany by bringing them over to England and only half of them by transporting them to Eretz Israel, then I opt for the second alternative.”
– David Ben Gurion (1938)
>>>This time your point seems to be that Hitler was willing to let the Jews go and the
>>>Zionists didn’t want to negotiate.
>>>Therefore the Zionists are as bad if not worse than the nazis
Not what I said or implied at all. I specifically referred to the german actions as despicable but I am simply countering the delusional notion that zionists somehow care about ‘jews’.
Don’t forget, many zionists are christians who truly believe that their loving god will come and slaughter and torture the jews until they accept him. And is torturing all jews who don’t accept him before they die for the rest of eternity.
Basic point being, don’t pretend that being pro-zionist is being pro-jew, or being anti-zionist is being anti-jew.
>>>if not from the very slaughter you wish to slander threm about. Sick really.
Again, you are pretending that jews are the same as zionists. The zionists who left the jews to be slaughtered when they could have helped them are the ones I am exposing, (it can only be slandering if it isn’t true), not the ones left in the camps to suffer horrifically and die.
What’s sick is supporting the movement that shows no compassion for the jews. Even now, germany is still paying reparations to israel for the atrocities they committed, and israel use this money to support zionist propaganda groups while camp survivors living in israel rummage through bins looking for food.
HTF can anyone say they support jews when they support zionists, that’s what is sick.
>>>Sorry if I am not swept away by your logic.
Or facts. I expect that to be fair, your position does not depend on, or consider, facts, logic or reason so attempting to address your position with facts, logic or reason is difficult.
your entire post is total nonsense. Out of context, historically innaccurate and devoid of reasoning. Methinks you buy into too many conspiracies. You certainly have dehumanized the Israelis to the point that you beleive they don’t think like other humans do… Those Zionists you are talking about in British Palestine in the 1930 and 1940’s (all Jewish BTW), their brothers, sisters, cousins, fathers, uncles and aunts were the ones on the other side of the Nazi grip. And here you are saying they didn’t care. If only those Zionists (many of whom had escaped the Nazis) had your humanity hey, how nice the world would be. As for the conspiracy itself, it is always easy to take a quote here and there (BTW nice strawman by pretending I’d implied it wasn’t genuine – always a good tactic, make it seem like your right about something) and extrapolate from it to the point that you have a conspiracy. Awful thing though, to be building conspiracies about the Jews at the time of the holocaust. After all, that is exactly what you are doing. I am really not interested in this discussion, I had this crap done and dusted in the days I used to hang around Stormfront.
>>>your entire post is total nonsense.
But you can’t demonstrate that in any way so I have just have to take your opinion as fact as opposed to taking facts as facts.
>>>And here you are saying they didn’t care.
Quoting them saying they didn’t care.
>>>As for the conspiracy itself, it is always easy to take a quote here and there
But that is not what you are doing is it? You are defending the conspiracy that zionists care about jews by…
Well, stuffing your fingers in your ears and going ‘la la la’.
You acknowledge the quote is genuine as a statement of zionist policy and dismiss it as not an indication of zionist policy.
>>>Awful thing though, to be building conspiracies about the Jews at the
>>>time of the holocaust
Not the jews, the zionists. Different thing entirely.
>>>I had this crap done and dusted in the days I used to hang around Stormfront.
Maybe you should grasp that the lies and hatred in stormfront are the same thing as the lies and hatred spewed by anti-BDS campaigners.
Your entire position is based in the belief that palestinians are sub-human and don’t deserve rights.
Demonstrate it in what way? You are like a creationist walking onto a darwinist site telling me to disprove that the existence of the table is evidence of the existence of god. Then criticising me when I don’t really address the question. Your entire idea is so riddled with holes that only ‘belief’ can hold it all together. There isn’t any logic there and there is little I can do or say that would ever make a dent in your adherence to the belief. Putting aside revisionism and historical innaccuracy, the main errors that are glaring and that you somehow cannot see are these:
The ‘Zionists’ had no nation. By the mid to late 1930’s, the period in question, Jews were being turned away from everywhere. There were international conferences designed for nations to wash their hands of guilt, boats were turned back, the British limited and even stopped Jewish immigration. Your cult seems to depend on their being an imaginary land of Narnia, that the Zionists were able to whisk the Jews to through some magic wardrobe. You then seek to berate the Zionist movement for not enabling this to happen. This at the very time boats were being turned away at ports. It is simply nonsense.
The Zionists in question and the Jews escaping the holocaust were one and the same. You seem to be using ‘Zionism’ in its general term when it suits you and the changing it to mean those residing in British Palestine when it doesn’t. Your theory has the innocent and oppressed Jew escaping Nazi persecution becoming a monster (a Zionist) as soon as he stepped into the mandate land. These people were one and the same. The 5th Aliyah (the 1930’s) brought 250,000 Jews to Palestine, which means that Jews escaping the Nazis represented half of the Jews in British Palestine. You can therefore conflate the Zionists of British Palestine with the refugee Jews because most came from the same pot. Turning them into good guy-bad guy is an adam and eve fairytale.
Chamberlin’s quotes from 1938, what do they say about the British as a whole? Nothing at all actually. Yet using your method with the ‘zionists’ we can apply the same logic to the British. How about quotes from British politicans about the Nazis in the 1930’s? Yet these people, the British were to choose to go to war with the Nazis just one year later and fought a brutal war against them for 6 years. Were there scumbag Zionists? Yes of course, just as there were scumbag Brits, Americans, Canadians and so on. Does finding a quote from 1938 British politics imply all Brits felt that way? You cannot take a quote and apply it in the fashion you do. Taking a quote removing it from history, from political circumstance, from the thought process behind it, from its actual context, and then applying it as the blanket policy for the entire Zionist movement is simply bordering on the insane.
It givens ‘Zionism’ and ‘Zionists’ a singular mind. Which is pure poppycock. One only has to look at Israel to see the diversity of opinions from Meretz to the Zionist religious movements. The Jews, like every other people, do not have a single head with a single brain controlling thoughts. You ignore agreeements such as the Haavara Agreement. Your theory suggests that the mother who had escaped and was in Tel Aviv, looked to her children still stuck in Poland, and didn’t want to help them. It dehumanizes the Jew.
As for your final comment… that my ‘entire position is based in the belief that palestinians are sub-human and don’t deserve rights.’ is a perfect example of how your arguments are constructed. You have a whole website here as a library. Find one comment, that suggests I believe that the Palestinians are sub-human or don’t deserve rights. you can’t of course because it isn’t there. People like me who seek a workable solution, are those interested in the welfare of all people despite our inherent bias, it is those who are trying to push movements like BDS, who do not actually care about the humanitarian issues. Thank you for ending with that outrageous comment. The one I absolutely reject and goes against every principle I believe in. That you did this does highlight exactly how your entire arguments are simply empty chasms built without substance.
I am now genuinely interested as you seem to believe that you are a reasonable party in this dispute.
What could the palestinians do to achieve peace with israel?
This is where we have a problem. You say you cannot address my ‘belief’ and prove they are nonsense because they are too nonsensical. This is because the only thing you see is my failure to buy into your belief that jews are a wonderful people.
You understand so little of what is going on someone explaining the reality to you is like someone explaining colour to a person blind from birth.
I reference the israeli occupation of palestine and you don’t appear to even know it is happening, you assume I’m talking about the invasion in the 20s, 30s and 40s of jews into palestine in preparation for the take over.
The concept that there is already a war going on, that israel is waging war on palestine, is unknown to you.
The idea that palestinians actually have the right to fight back against this occupation is, to you, like stating that cows have the right to fightback against the abattoir.
But answering your points in this last post directly:
You state that there was nowhere else for the jews to go, this is a lie. There were ships full of jewish refugees sent to Mauritius but the zionists sank it, murdering 100s of jews, because that was unacceptable, they had to go to palestine. That is one example.
But the simple fact is that it wasn’t the zionists trying and failing to evacuate the jews is it? It’s that the zionists made a very deliberate decision to just leave them there for propaganda purposes.
So you have decided that the evacuation would never have succeeded and so it doesn’t reflect badly on the Zionist “Jewish” Agency Executive Officers in Switzerland that they had a deliberate policy to not even try. I don’t subscribe to that point of view.
>>>The Zionists in question and the Jews escaping the holocaust were one and the same.
Now that is silly, the zionists in question were not in the camps and had the power to get the jews out. The idea that all jews in europe were zionists is just dumb.
By ‘zionists’ I am referring to the organisational groups that had built up over the previous few decades with the intention of creating a jewish state in palestine.
And I haven’t referred to zionists living in british palestine, I have referred to zionists living in modern palestine.
>>>Chamberlin’s quotes from 1938, what do they say about the British as a whole?
>>>Nothing at all actually.
In reality, they define the policies and attitudes of the british government. Just as Ben Gurion’s comments defined the policies of the zionist organisations dedicated to creating israel, no matter what the cost.
You seem to be living under the delusion that jew and zionist are the same thing. The zionist movement to bring jews ‘back’ to palestine didn’t exist until the late 19th century. There have been jews living in palestine since its creation by Rome in 135CE. The jews of palestine fought with the muslims against the christian crusades centuries ago. But it was a deliberate decision by some jews to actually push for a jewish nation in palestine in the late 19th century.
It is these that I am referring to as zionists during WWII. And, as the quotes I have provided show, they didn’t care about jews, they cared about creating a jewish nation. Which HAD to be in palestine, nowhere else was acceptable to them.
Your lack of knowledge of this history leads you to believe I am dehumanising ‘the jew’. But that is the opposite of the truth, it was this zionist movement that dehumanised ‘the jew’, that decided they were nothing more than numbers,
“Remember this: all the allies have suffered many losses, and if we also do not offer many human sacrifices, how can we gain the right to sit at the conference table when the territorial boundaries are reshaped?”
The mother of the children still in Poland would, viewed as a human, be ecstatic to get her children safe to Mauritius. But the zionist movement, (I will now refer to the political drive to create israel as ‘the zionist movement’ to help you understand the nuances), would rather tell this woman her children were dead than tell her they were save in Mauritius.
>>>Find one comment, that suggests I believe that the Palestinians are sub-human or
>>>don’t deserve rights.
“However, the government has clearly stated it believes there is a connection between BDS activity and antisemitism on campus and that BDS ‘undermines good community relations‘.”
A statement you clearly agree with.
BDS is simply a refusal to support the criminal colonies in Palestine. Opposition to BDS can only be possible if you support the criminal colonies and their activities. As the criminal colonies are blatant violations of the rights of the Palestinian people you can only support them if you consider violating Palestinian rights to be perfectly acceptable.
(This, BTW, is another example of leaders not reflecting the beliefs of the people they lead but still defining the collective attitudes and actions of the people they lead.)
>>>People like me who seek a workable solution, are those interested in the welfare
>>>of all people despite our inherent bias, it is those who are trying to push
>>>movements like BDS, who do not actually care about the humanitarian issues.
OK, why do you believe that people who refuse to support the criminal colonies do not care about the humanitarian issues?
You have, in our discussion, already alluded to what you seem to believe is ‘a workable solution’. “Both parties recognise each other”, which shows that you are completely unaware that palestine officially recognised israel’s right to exist nearly a quarter century ago.
Parties, (specifically the arabs), end their ‘unreasonable demands’.
What demands are ‘unreasonable’?
I admit to growing weary. Not because I do not have a response to the contradictory messages, but because there seems little point. You begin by suggesting I believe that ‘Jews are a wonderful people’. This from a person whose entire argument is dependent on accepting that when he attacks Zionism it isn’t about Jews. I’d also like to correct your habit of telling me what it is I believe before criticising me for a belief I do not even hold. You are continually creating these strawmen arguments. It isn’t going to work on me. At no point have I ever suggested Jews are ‘wonderful people’. Just as I had never suggested Palestinians are sub-human. I know that it is a deflection tactic that may work for you elsewhere, I have seen it used with some success in forums. I don’t and won’t engage it.
It is funny you think I understand so little of what is going on. I would imagine I have spent longer there than most people you come in contact with. Interacting with people on both sides of the great divide. I was actively trying to build bridges. Though that isn’t the issue is it, you simply want it to appear you ‘know more than I do’, well, good luck with that one. Given some of the nonsense you post, I think you need to interact with far more balanced sources.
You then begin with the empty rhetoric, and twist yourself in so many knots it makes my head spin. The Patria ship on the way to Mauritius that you speak of, was an attempt by the Hagana to stop the British from deporting Jews from Palestine, not to stop them leaving Germany. This is the way conspiracies work, they tie together anything they can use that is close at hand, even if it doesn’t actually support their case. This incident wasn’t about Jews leaving Germany at all. Unless of course you wish to argue that Haifa was a port in Germany.
As for there being nowhere else to go. You have called it a lie. It is probably one of the most well-known and disgraceful *facts* of the 1930’s. I suggest you read some of the mandate papers from this time, and the detailed reports surrounding efforts to house escaping refugees. It is quite embarrasing that you persist in suggesting such a Narnia existed. Mauritius was simply a very limited deportation point for the British to offload a few unwanted people, to suggest it could accommodate the fleeing Jewish tide is both historically ridiculous and morally repugnant. The scary thing is, I believe you may actually think some of this stuff your spouting is true.
Your confusion over Jews and Zionists has been created to allow you to attack Jews whilst hiding behind the ‘Zionist’ defence. You mix and match the word Zionist at your leisure. The truth is that the vast majority of Jews who were in Europe by 1940 were most certainly Zionists *EVEN IF THEY DID NOT THEMSELVES WANT TO GO TO PALESTINE*. This is where you display an apparent misunderstanding (perhaps deliberate) of Zionism. Almost all Jews in the UK for example, are certainly Zionists. They may disagree with the government policies to one degree or another, but apparently over 90% support Israel’s right to exist (and are therefore Zionist). When you smash at ‘Zionists’, not surprisingly, you smash at the vast, vast majority of Jews. No wonder people get suspicious about the real motives of people who seek to destroy a functioning democratic nation that just happens to be majority ‘Jewish’.
Almost every Jew I know has close family and friends in Israel. Although this situation was less pronounced in the 1930’s, for the escaping Jews and the Zionists in Israel, this was still most certainly the case. half of the Zionists in Israel, had escaped from the Nazis themselves.
You pick and choose quotes selecting which ones support your case. So if Ben Gurion made one that suits you, then you use it, despite ignoring scores of other quotes from the same person that contradict that very position. Yours is not an argument of history, it is one of blind support, driven by a hatred that isn’t interested in what is true and what is not. That you rehashed the Mauritius episode again in your example of the mother, simply highlights you receive your information from really tainted sources, with little pressure to adhere to accuracy. The mother in question would have been helping the Hagana to disable the ship so the British couldn’t deport her child.
Regarding BDS. BDS interferes internally with a democratic nation. Only one of its 3 clauses deals with the territories taken in 1967. That one I accept is a legitimate position (a boycott argument that has some merit). The other 2 ‘goals’ deal with a, Israeli Arabs and b, the refugees. The issue of the refugees is highly debatable, but in dealing with the Israeli Arabs, BDS ‘outs’ itself, not as a movement of peace, but one that openly seeks Israel’s destruction. How is the position of the voting Israel Arabs anything to do with you? Why are you boycotting Israel until it grants you your desires with regards to some of the Israelis?
If BDS was a movement that supported humanitarian causes, it would be pushing for recognition of the refugee’s rights inside Lebanon. Why is BDS ignoring the persecution in Lebanon, whilst pushing for something it is highly unlikely to ever receive. They take ownership of those refugees by including them in their goals, but then attach them to something unacheivable. In effect, they are stepping over something possibly achievable (improving the lives of the persecuted refugees in Lebanon who do exist in an Apartheid system) and sacrificing this wellbeing to try to score a political victory. That isn’t a humanitarian position at all, it is transparent, and disregards entirely the lives of the people involved. You seem to try to find examples of Zionists not caring about Jews, yet you skip over the blatantly obvious fact that the BDS movement doesn’t actually care about the Palestinians at all. It wants war, not peace and it doesn’t care who or what gets hurt in the meantime. Just like an extremist terror group, it needs to bring poverty and desperation to thrive and achieve its aims. Why are you selling out yet another generation of refugee children in Lebanon rather than actively seek an improvement in their lives?
You finish of by suggesting I am ‘unaware of history’ again. It is such a weak tactic. I was there in 93 and was there throughout Oslo. Just as before, you use this as a way of trying to score empty points. As I said earlier, it might work on some forums, it won’t work with me. I believe I have read and experienced enough to know how to differentiate the truth from the lies. I certainly know that Haifa is not in Germany.
>>>Just as I had never suggested Palestinians are sub-human.
You cannot oppose BDS without approving of the criminal colonies that BDS is targeted against, which means you approve of committing massive crimes against the palestinians.
But you are now saying that you approve of the violation of the rights of palestinians but still believe they have those rights?!
I don’t understand how you can hold such contradictory thoughts at the same time.
>>>I was actively trying to build bridges.
What I saw was you vehemently against a campaign against those who violate human rights.
>>>The Patria ship on the way to Mauritius that you speak of, was an attempt by the
>>>Hagana to stop the British from deporting Jews from Palestine, not to stop them
>>>leaving Germany.
That is a nice spin on it, but incorrect. The ship attempted to illegally enter Palestine which was unacceptable as the people of Palestine were fully aware of the zionist movements’s intent and did not want to be ruled by jews, or driven out. The british offered them a place elsewhere and haganah sunk it rather than accept any destination other than Palestine.
>>>As for there being nowhere else to go. You have called it a lie. It is probably one of the
>>>most well-known and disgraceful *facts* of the 1930’s.
As stated, Mauritius was offered but not even considered. You continue to push a fallacy, that the zionist movement attempted to get jews out of europe but failed as there was nowhere to go.
That is incorrect, they never even tried because they wanted the body count for negotiation leverage.
>>>to suggest it could accommodate the fleeing Jewish tide is both historically ridiculous
>>>and morally repugnant.
We’ll never find out as it was unacceptable to the zionist movement. Plus, the massive flood of jews saved by the zionist movement never materialised because the zionist movement thought it more advantageous to just let them die.
>>>When you smash at ‘Zionists’, not surprisingly, you smash at the vast, vast majority of Jews.
But not because they are jews, which is the point. Zionism is, by definition, bigoted and immoral, being jewish is not. Jews who choose to adhere to the tenets of zionism, the belief that the rights and lives and gentiles doesn’t matter because ‘jews’ should control ‘the holy land’, are bigoted and immoral. But so are the people like Cameron who are ‘zionist’ but not jewish, (although he almost certainly has his immorality based in filthy lucre).
Being anti-zionist is not being anti-jew, claiming it is is ludicrous.
>>>but apparently over 90% support Israel’s right to exist (and are therefore Zionist).
Ah! You have a very limited definition of zionism when you attempt to justify it but the ‘zionism’ that is so opposed to BDS is nothing to do with supporting israel’s right to exist is it? It is entirely driven by supporting israel’s ‘right’ to steal and oppress in its campaign to expand its borders.
Modern day zionism, whether jewish, christian or scientologist, is entirely about supporting the criminal colonies and the brutal oppression of the palestinians so that israel can take their land.
>>>The mother in question would have been helping the Hagana to disable the ship so
>>>the British couldn’t deport her child.
They weren’t deporting, obviously, as they weren’t in palestine, they were in Poland as you stated. But the zionist movement were given the opportunity to rescue jews but they preferred to leave the children to die in Poland than get them out. To where is not part of the argument. POSSIBLY, if unlimited immigration to israel for jews was allowed then the zionist movement would have changed their mind and rescued the jews they could, all we know is they refused to even try.
I suppose if they achieved their goals of creating an israel against the wishes of the palestinians they would feel they didn’t need millions of dead jews any more and would have made the effort to rescue them,
Whichever, to use the lives of millions of your ‘own people’ as bargaining chips is truly despicable.
>>>The issue of the refugees is highly debatable, but in dealing with the Israeli Arabs,
>>>BDS ‘outs’ itself, not as a movement of peace, but one that openly seeks Israel’s destruction.
The issue of the refugees is debatable?! “Israel, honour the promise you made when you entered the UN>” vs “Israel has no honour and will NOT honour its promises” is not really a debate is it?
But I am intrigued, how can campaigning for the equal rights for all in israel be proof that they desire the ‘destruction of israel’? Was South Africa destroyed when apartheid ended?
So your opposition to BDS is not based on its opposition to the criminal colonies but is based on your belief that israeli jews should be able to treat israeli gentiles as inferiors?
To be fair, I’ve never considered that part of BDS to be significant as israel continually babbles on about how well the israeli gentiles are treated all they have to do is live up to their own hype.
>>>How is the position of the voting Israel Arabs anything to do with you?
I agree, they should remove that from the list but carry on doing everything they are doing. Let’s be honest, if the BDS movement gets the israeli regime to abide by international law regarding the OTs and its commitments regarding the refugees then the issue of israel violating international human rights law with its discrimination against its own people on basis of ‘jew or gentile’ will probably not be sufficient for the movement to continue.
But you fixate on the least important of the demands as you cannot, morally, make a stance against the others.
>>>If BDS was a movement that supported humanitarian causes, it would be pushing
>>>for recognition of the refugee’s rights inside Lebanon.
The refugee’s right to go home? They are doing. Or is there other ‘rights’ that you are referring to?
So ignore the right that they can go home to the land that was stolen from them but focus on all the others?
>>>hey take ownership of those refugees by including them in their goals, but then attach
>>>them to something unacheivable.
I disagree, although there is no chance that israel will honour its promise and allow the refugees home as they are gentiles, and no chance that israel will pay reparations to allow them to become masters of their own destinies but there is a good chance that israel will get the US to pay reparations for them. And that is acceptable.
>>>It wants war, not peace and it doesn’t care who or what gets hurt in the meantime.
You seem confused, we already have war, and have had for nearly 70 years. And this war will continue until it is advantageous to israel to choose peace. This is what BDS aims to do, create a situation where peace is preferable to war for israel.
>>>Just like an extremist terror group, it needs to bring poverty and desperation to
>>>thrive and achieve its aims.
Again, you’re confused. There is already poverty and desperation that has been deliberately brought by israel. There is no known way to get israel to accept peace without pressure, this is applying pressure without war.
>>>I was there in 93 and was there throughout Oslo.
If that were true you would know that palestine recognised israel’s right to exist in 1993 but israel has never recognised palestine’s right to exist.
And yet you don’t.
>>>I certainly know that Haifa is not in Germany.
But you didn’t know that the refugees were on a ship, not in Haifa. Or you conveniently ignored that fact.
I am disappointed though, I asked you what the palestinians could do to achieve peace and you have not answered that..
Is that because you know there is nothing they can do?
Colin. You argue that I ‘cannot oppose BDS without approving of the criminal colonies that BDS is targeted against’. You follow that logic with a suggestion this means I ‘approve of committing massive crimes against the Palestinians’. It is extremely fascist and displays the core principles of McCarthyism.
Let us assume you are right, and ‘massive crimes are being committed’. You are suggesting that through my opposition to the lynch mob outside the door of the one you believe is responsible, I am somehow siding with the person you believe to be the guilty party. My position therefore, is one of justice, yours displays echoes of some of the darkest chapters in human history.
It is a shame you do not seem to be able to look in the mirror to see the monster you represent. Just when was this trial that convicted the ‘accused’ so totally that the mob outside has to be given the right to carry out the death sentence? Just who made you into the lord and master that you slander those that seek to remind you of the basic principles of justice?
When you say that all you saw was someone ‘acting vehemently against the Palestinians’, you are once again mistaken. You are not actually reading what I write, but rather placing me into a pre-prepared box where you place anyone who stands in front of the lynch mob.
Now you realised your mistake on the Patria ship, you have changed your tune somewhat. You are still totally incorrect and introduce elements into history that did not exist and have been stated by no reputable sources. You had entered it in the discussion over Zionist actions against those leaving Europe. We both know this wasn’t the case. Records show this was an attempt to stop Jews being deported from Palestine by sabotaging the ship. The deaths were a tragic error. You are trying to spin your case here, but your use of the ship with the example of the mother does prove in effect you didn’t know what you were talking about.
You are also ignoring international law when it suits you. The mandate for Palestine was awarded to the British by the League of Nations for the purpose of the Jewish home. This was the international law that governed Palestine. The British broke their agreements and the mandate. How is it that your entire argument is built around Israel breaking international law, when you do not respect at all the international law that set up the mandate and gave the green light to Zionism in the first place. Don’t you see your position is hypocritical and contradictory?
Your knowledge of Zionist actions during the war is extremely limited. It is because you restrict your source material and discard anything that disagrees with you. On my shelf I have Pappe, Said, Morris, Finkelstein, Segev, Blumenthal, Sabbagh and Cleveland. I am currently reading the Origins of Palestinian Nationalism by Muhammad Muslih. I can assure you, there is little you can tell me I do not already know. The same cannot be said in reverse however, and I do suggest you read just a little of the numerous Zionist movements who were desperate to extract however many Jews from the clutches of the Nazis as they could. Your rendition of this event into a singular and limited political position is somewhat embarrassing. Please, try and enlighten yourself a little. Talking the way you do about the Jews and the Nazis places you on extremely unhealthy ground.
Your talk of Zionism and antizionism is also extremely weak, more so because you are so clearly badly read and ill-informed on the subjects. No, not every antizionist is an antisemite, but many are. That a minority of Jews exist that oppose me means nothing. Jews who were willing to convert to Christianity were not a sign that the movement against the Jews at the time wasn’t antisemitic. I also do not know of any majority viewpoint that thinks ‘gentiles’ are unimportant. You seem to be making a lot of this up as you go along. If not, I think you visit some really dodgy websites far too often.
How can you suggest that the Zionism that opposes BDS have nothing to do with Israel’s right to exist, if BDS at its core opposes Israel’s right to exist. You cannot fulfil the 3 goals of BDS and still have Israel. It isn’t possible. Modern day Zionism is about Israel’s right to exist. There has not been an election in Israel where the majority have not supported territorial compromise with the Arabs. Not one. You are spinning again.
Of course the issue of the refugees is debatable. Almost a million Jews left Arab lands too. My wife’s father’s family was expelled from Egypt penniless in 1956. Are you suggesting Israel needs to pay for the fact it acted more ethically towards refugees entering its borders than the Arabs did? Additionally, how many of the 1948 refugees are still alive? For 3 generations Lebanon has persecuted the descendants of these Arabs. 68 years. It is disgraceful. Are you open for a full compensation package for *all refugees* created by the conflict? Or just the Arabs?
I am glad that you do seem to be able to realise there are issues with the BDS goals. It is unfortunate you seem unable to carry that logic through to the obvious conclusion about what it actually indicates are the true goals of the movement.
I do not often discuss the solutions to the conflict as my primary goal is to address the international movement that seeks to delegitimize and destroy Israel. I did address some of the issues once in a blog you can read it here. https://david-collier.com/?p=1239
>>It is extremely fascist and displays the core principles of McCarthyism.
Say what?! You oppose people declaring they will not support the criminal activities of israel but condemn the criminal activities of israel?
>>>Let us assume you are right, and ‘massive crimes are being committed’.
That is not an assumption, that is simple fact.
>>>You are suggesting that through my opposition to the lynch mob outside the door of the
>>>one you believe is responsible, I am somehow siding with the person you believe to be
>>>the guilty party.
Lynch mob?! FFS, all they are doing is refusing to support the criminal colonies!! It’s not like they’re bombing schools with white phosphorous, destroying fields and murdering children by the hundred as israel do.
You are adamantly opposed to ANY action against the criminal colonies, not just BDS, What action against the criminal colonies could be LESS aggressive except nothing?
Is that what you want? Absolutely NOTHING done about the criminal colonies and plight of the palestinians?
>>>but rather placing me into a pre-prepared box where you place anyone who stands in
>>>front of the lynch mob.
This is the problem, anyone who stands up for palestinian rights is, according to you, a lynch mob. And you don’t comprehend that people seeing your attitude realise that this is due to your vehement opposition to any pro-palestinian stance.
>>>Now you realised your mistake on the Patria ship, you have changed your tune somewhat
I reworded the same stance so you could comprehend it better, still wasn’t deporting from palestine as you pretend so the mistake wasn’t mine but yours.
Still, you HAVE to defend the mass murder of over a hundred jews by zionists don’t you?
>>>Records show this was an attempt to stop Jews being deported from Palestine
>>>by sabotaging the ship.
It wasn’t in palestine, it hadn’t been allowed to unload. You have to be somewhere before you can be deported.
>>>The deaths were a tragic error.
Mass murder of jews actually.
>>>but your use of the ship with the example of the mother does prove in effect
>>>you didn’t know what you were talking about.
Read it again, the mother was your example and had nothing to do with the ship. The error was not on my part, I knew exactly what I was talking about.
>>>when you do not respect at all the international law that set up the mandate and gave
>>>the green light to Zionism in the first place.
Why is this relevant? The mandate was based on the Balfour declaration which was absolutely rejected by the zionist movement when they refused to comply with the condition that they treat gentiles in the land they were being given with full respect for their human rights.
That mandate was rejected by both sides, why do you bring it up?
>>>I can assure you, there is little you can tell me I do not already know.
You didn’t even know that palestine recognised israel’s right to exist nearly a quarter century ago!
>>>and I do suggest you read just a little of the numerous Zionist movements who were
>>>desperate to extract however many Jews from the clutches of the Nazis as they could.
Obviously I am aware of jewish movements to extract jews from the horrors of the nazi regime, I actually quoted the letter from the Zionist Jewish Agency HQ in Switzerland to one of them, the Jewish Rescue Committee in Czechoslovakia.
What was the attitude of the other ‘zionist’ groups that wanted the jews out of europe to the stated attitude of ‘Zionist Jewish Agency HQ in Switzerland ‘
I’m also interested in your opinion of Pappe who openly stated that the reason for the war of 1948 was to ethnically cleanse the gentiles out. I have maintained this for a good while, there was no chance of the zionist movement moving peacefully into palestine. They had to drive the gentiles out and that required a war, so one was created.
>>>How can Zionism that opposes BDS have nothing to do with Israel’s right to exist,
>>>if BDS oppose Israel’s right to exist.
BDS does not oppose israel’s right to exist so your question is nonsensical.
>>>You cannot fulfil the 3 goals of BDS and still have Israel.
Why not? Which of the three goals would destroy israel? And how?
You have stated that giving equal rights to israeli gentiles will destroy israel, why would it do that?
>>>Almost a million Jews left Arab lands too.
Do you not know what ‘zionism’ is at all?!! The entire point of israel was to get all the jews to move there. But achieving their goal, (zionists actually bombed jews in Baghdad to force them to move out), has to be blamed on others?
Israel promised to allow all the gentiles they had ethnically cleansed to return home, this was to demonstrate they were a ‘peace loving nation’ and therefore worthy of entry to the UN.
They have yet to fulfill that promise. But it is still an obligation that they have yet to fulfill.
Where’s the ‘argument’?
>>>My wife’s father’s family was expelled from Egypt penniless in 1956.
Sorry, not 1948? What happened in 1956 to get them expelled? Oh, wait, ‘the jewish nation’ attempted to steal a large amount of Egyptian land. And obviously Egypt listened to the israeli propaganda of how ‘jew = israel’ and ‘israel = jew’. The same BS Israel are still pulling.
>>>I am glad that you do seem to be able to realise there are issues with the BDS goals.
You misunderstand, there is nothing wrong with the goal of equal rights for gentiles in israel, I just think it shouldn’t be part of BDS. BDS is not sanctions on israel, just the criminal colonies. The sanctions against SA in order to force them to give equal rights for native africans was against the actual nation.
BDS should concentrate on the illegal colonies and the occupation. Achieve peace for israelis and palestinians. Then the goal of equal rights in israel can be addressed, should be addressed.
>>>Are you open for a full compensation package for *all refugees* created by the conflict?
>>>Or just the Arabs?
As the israeli tactic was to create a situation in which jews would be forced to emigrate to israel I don’t think that is valid.
Lol, that was a nice twist. You had argued opposing BDS = supporting criminal colonies. This is incredibly flawed logic on so many levels. The argument is too circular to warrant investing time in. On the one hand you acknowledge BDS has elements that don’t seem important to you, on the other you seek to empower a movement that wants to take things further than you do. Who gets to decide when it stops? What will the area look like if BDS ‘wins’? Can you give me a single example of a state from the entire region that I can use as an example?
You then say that for me “anyone who stands up for Palestinian rights is a lynch mob”. It is like suggesting that because I say a colour isn’t red, therefore it must be blue. There is no logic to any of these arguments. Only bad reasoning.
You say “I didn’t even know that Palestine recognised Israel’s right to exist nearly a quarter century ago”. Once again, you are making empty statements and creating strawman victories. I think I know a fair bit about Oslo. Why do you do this? It isn’t real, it isn’t accurate, so why bother? Either engage in sincerity or don’t engage.
My opinion of Pappe is that he is something of a conspiracy theorist. I think Morris takes him apart in one or two pieces were he addresses Pappe’s failure to adhere to historical events. He is an interesting read, but he allows his own bias to direct events, places too much credibility in a politically motivated oral history and takes events out of the context of the time. He downplays the opposition and overstates Zionist control.
You save the greatest hypocrisy to last though. I have incredible patience and I always choose to interact regardless, but I did cringe at your insistence of the Zionist/Nazi episode. What you now do with the Arab Jews however, does leave you highly exposed. There were approx. 800,000 Jews living in Arab lands. Today there are almost none. It is true that Israel wanted numbers, it may also be true that in some lands Zionists were actively recruiting. *BUT* none of this sets aside the crimes committed by the Arabs against the Jews. Hundreds of thousands of Jews were expelled or were forced to leave behind their property. There were massacres in several countries that forced flight. You cannot have it both ways. Either these are crimes that can be forgotten or crimes that have to be addressed. That a 3rd party may or may not have had interest, is absolutely irrelevant.
Put it this way. Let us pretend the Zionists are the demons you believe they are. Let us pretend everything you believe is right. Let’s take this idea of Zionist ‘demons’into ridiculous territory. Does the UK now have the right to expel all the Muslims because of ISIS? ISIS claims it is the caliphate. It has made calls for Muslims to come home and fight to ensure that the Islamic State is victorious. The region has descended into chaos around it. According to your logic, using your values. Europe can now expel every Muslim and nobody would have a claim to anything. It is as absurd as it is disgusting.
So that leaves me with a problem. You suggest there is nothing antisemitic about your reasoning at all, only antizionist. Yet your issue with Zionist actions with the Nazis and your inability to be consistent over what is a Zionist and what is a Jew, allows you to mix and match at leisure. But here we are not dealing with Zionists, we are dealing with innocent Jews. People who had their entire lives destroyed by Arab nations, who in some cases simply kicked them out penniless. Hundreds of thousands of people. And here you think there is no case to answer.
So why are you treating the Jews differently from the Arabs in this case? Why the discrepancy? What you think of Zionists or what you think the Zionists wanted is irrelevant. From before the Farhud, Jews were being massacred. Jews were dispossessed, Jews were evicted. Some of it even from before Israel’s existence. Yet from you – nada. ‘It isn’t valid’. Yet for what you believe to be massacres, dispossession and eviction on the other side, for that you are still seeking ‘justice’ 70 years later. This is hypocritical and inconsistent.
We are however going round in circles. I will not be persuaded by your inconsistency and I doubt you will be moved by my Zionism. You can respond, but I think I will probably just leave it at this point. Thank you in any event for the exchange.
>>>You had argued opposing BDS = supporting criminal colonies. This is incredibly
>>>flawed logic on so many levels.
This going to be interesting, how you are going to twist this?!
>>>The argument is too circular to warrant investing time in.
You’re not. BDS refuses to support the criminal colonies by trading with them but opposing BDS is not support for trading with the criminal colonies!!!
>>>On the one hand you acknowledge BDS has elements that don’t seem important to you, on
>>>the other you seek to empower a movement that wants to take things further than you do.
You completely, deliberately, misunderstand. The fight for equal rights within israel is important but not as important as stopping the appalling violations of human rights, the systematic torture and murder of 100s of children is the most appalling of these but certainly not the only.
I’m talking about priorities, not moral righteousness.
Gentile israelis should not be identified by their ID as gentile so that ‘law enforcement’ know who to persecute for one example!
>>>You then say that for me “anyone who stands up for Palestinian rights is a lynch mob”.
Obviously, you called BDS a ‘lynch mob’ when they are fundamentally peaceful. Israel mass murder children by the hundred to get their way and you remain silent, (that I have seen), BDS refuses to trade with criminals and they are a lynch mob.
And you don’t understand why I see you as an extremist?! Peaceful action is ‘lynch mob’, mass murdering 100s of children is acceptable.
If it was the other way around, if palestinians systematically murdered over 500 jewish children, you would be screaming ‘nuke them’!
>>>You say “I didn’t even know that Palestine recognised Israel’s right to exist nearly a
>>>quarter century ago”. Once again, you are making empty statements and creating
>>>strawman victories. I think I know a fair bit about Oslo. Why do you do this? It isn’t
>>>real, it isn’t accurate, so why bother? Either engage in sincerity or don’t engage.
Take the plank of wood out of your own eye! It was you who said that the palestinians need to recognise israel. On that basis I assumed you weren’t lying but were actually ignorant of history.
Are you a compulsive liar? Do I have to assume that when you say something you are lying?
>>> think Morris takes him apart in one or two pieces were he addresses Pappe’s failure
>>>to adhere to historical events.
Morris is an honest zionist, which is a rare thing. He acknowledges the mass murder of palestinians and the brutal ethnic cleansing. But he says it was justified because jews had to have domination of the ‘holy land’.
Most zionists pretend it was self defence by the zionist movement.
>>>but I did cringe at your insistence of the Zionist/Nazi episode.
You acknowledge everything I said was the truth, you just tried to downplay the bits of history you don’t like and pretend that the zionist movement was actually nice. Never did see any evidence from you to back that up.
>>>It is true that Israel wanted numbers, it may also be true that in some lands
>>>Zionists were actively recruiting.
May be true?!!! Israeli agents bombed jews in Baghdad to make them want to move to Israel. Even now, they are trying, unsuccessfully, to cajole the jews of iran to move to israel. Openly bribing them. The netanyahu is constantly trying to get jews to move to israel, it may be complete coincidence that his policies seem to have the intent of making jews hated which would facilitate this, I don’t think so.
>>>Hundreds of thousands of Jews were expelled or were forced to leave behind their property.
This was the zionist intent, and there was certainly no gentile intent to make homeless 800,000 gentiles.
The zionist campaign was twofold, make the nations with jews throw them out, and make israel a desirable location. Like you said, Egypt had no problem with egyptian jews UNTIL ‘the jewish nation’ launched an attack on them to steal their land.
Without israeli aggression against egypt in 1956 ‘in the name of jews’ there would have been no expulsion. Do you not grasp that?
>>>Does the UK now have the right to expel all the Muslims because of ISIS?
No, did israel have the right to drive out all gentiles because they wanted a jewish state?
No.
Although you clearly disagree as does Morris.
You miss the blatant point here. Israel has ALWAYS declared that ‘jew = israel’. Condemning israeli mass murder of children is anti-semitism for example.
People, idiots, believe the israeli propaganda to be true. Cameron claims that BDS is anti-semitism, although a great deal of his campaign contributions relies on him saying that of course.
It works both ways, Bin Laden claimed he was representing muslims, a great many morons now hate muslims. Netanyahu claims he represents jews, a great many morons now hate jews.
But israel deliberately led the gentile nations to believe that the jews in their countries were fifth columnists.
You CANNOT compare the expulsion of jews, the zionist goal, with the expulsion of gentiles.
>>>Yet your issue with Zionist actions with the Nazis and your inability to be consistent
>>>over what is a Zionist and what is a Jew, allows you to mix and match at leisure.
The inconsistency was in your interpretation, not mine.
>>>So why are you treating the Jews differently from the Arabs in this case?
Explained before, explained again, called them morons for falling for zionist propaganda.
I treat them differently because they are different.
Let’s emphasise this point a little. Egypt is a popular tourist destination for israelis, presumably a lot of the tourists are jews? The US ambassador of Bahrain was jewish from 2008-2013. Jews are, by law, over represented in the iranian parliament.
Israel is enacting laws to remove elected gentiles from parliament.
>>>What you think of Zionists or what you think the Zionists wanted is irrelevant.
So zionists bombing jews in Baghdad is irrelevant? Or is that one more fact of history you refuse to accept?
>>>Yet for what you believe to be massacres, dispossession and eviction on the other side, for
>>>that you are still seeking ‘justice’ 70 years later. This is hypocritical and inconsistent.
Nope, I want israel to comply with international law, honour their promises and accept peace.
Not ‘seeking justice’, just neutering the ‘poor jews who survived the holocaust should be allowed to be monsters’ argument.
>>> I will not be persuaded by your inconsistency and I doubt you will be moved by my Zionism.
As yet, I don’t even know what your zionism is? If you merely want israel to live in peace I have no problem at all with that.
But the israeli government absolutely do not agree with you.
Perhaps the entire Israel experiment was flawed when the British issued the Balfour Declaration without consulting the Palestinians’ interests. Even Jewish law requires that both sides be heard in matters of this type of action, an action that involves justice.
Having said that, those arguments above full of opinions, facts, truths, untruths, history, social conditions, justice, etc., serve more as expressions of emotions and feelings rather than solutions and reality.
The very harsh reality, no matter how represented by Israel is this:
1. Israel cannot exist for long as a democratic Jewish state if it allows the return of or full political rights of the Palestinian people.
2. Israel has the sympathy and economic/military/diplomatic support of the world’s only super powers, some say hyper-power, the USA, and therefore will never lose a battle on any of these fronts with Palestine, in the view of most of the world, because of the USA and Israel, a non-state and unworthy of dignity or any action to acquire dignity or statehood.
3. Nothing will change in Israel or Palestine to bring justice to Palestinians until water runs out of that desert by overuse and over-population, and then the Jews will use their family connections and wealth to acquire homes in other lands, a new diaspora, and the Palestinians will be left to die in the dry desert.
Were I a Palestinian, and I am not because I am a Jewish- American (Note: Jewish-American, not an American Jew; sadly for my faith Jew has come to mean a dual citizen with Israel, and I am not and will never be), I would do all within my power to shake my sandals of that land and find a new home in this world where one can experience justice, education, work, dignity, and most of all, hope – HaTikva – the name of Israel’s national anthem which means nothing for Palestinians but poison and death. Find a new land, create a Diaspora, and be a light unto the world as we Jews were until 1948.