Jerusalem – the capital of Israel

Before discussing London, first a quick note about Jerusalem. It is where Israel’s Government sits and is inside Israel’s internationally recognised borders. Israel, as a sovereign state, has every right to name its own capital. So what is the problem here? The responsible nations on the planet should have recognised Jerusalem as the capital decades ago. Unofficially they all do, and as Trump pointed out, this is merely an acceptance of reality.

Instead, playing coward to the bullying tactics of the Arab block, the nations of the west set out on a journey that created so much damage – permitted the creation of the ‘Palestinian refugee’, gave credibility to the UN – a corrupt political body which deserves no credibility at all, gave air to a narrative with almost zero historicity, and permitted the growth of a new and insidious antisemitism. It is like extracting a tooth – the sooner you go to the dentist and deal with it, the better off everyone will be. If you don’t go, if you leave that tooth to decay for decades, the disease spreads and becomes unrecognisable. What we see today is the fallout from decades of western cowardice.

Thus, even pointing out the obvious, becomes a gesture that will ignite violence. What is it with the West and a fear of violence? It is better to know now, if the person you think is your friend will turn violent every time you upset him. Isn’t it? Like a wife who suffers abuse and is terrified of the monster in the bedroom, when it comes to Israel, the West will do everything to placate that monster. Just like the tooth, the best way to deal with this is to deal with it, not hide.

The anti-Trump bandwagon

Everyone is also up in arms because the POTUS, Trump, was the one who made the declaration. Which creates a problem for the media outlets who see Trump as the devil incarnate. These people, who are convinced that everything Trump does is wrong, and about to cause World War 3, cannot support Trump even when he is right or tells the truth. An anti-Trump reflex came into play. Israel didn’t just suffer from those people who always hate Israel, it suffered because the only thing more hated by many European media outlets than Israel, is Donald Trump.

In effect, it left little motive in the media to try to act responsibly, or diffuse any anger, because a ‘spontaneous’ violent outburst would help ‘prove’ that Trump is a danger to world peace. Rather than run articles explaining that in effect, Trump had only pointed out that because everyone already acts as if Jerusalem is the capital, and because Israel has the right to name its own capital, surely it is better to recognise the reality, they chose to focus on and amplify the angry voices. Even some staunch Zionist outlets, failed to support the move, because it originated with Donald Trump.

The London demonstration

Across the world, over the last two days we have witnessed the usual mob gathering in cities to attack the ‘blatant provocation’. Absurdly pushing the idea that pointing out reality can somehow damage a peace process, that the Palestinians have been blowing up for decades. Last night, 8th December, there was one in London. It was called by groups like the Palestine Solidarity Campaign and Stop the War Coalition, and friends of Al Aqsa. It was also supported by organisations such as War on Want, Socialist Worker, and Jewish Voice for Labour.

Religious incitement and hate

The event itself was full of religious incitement and anti-Jewish hatred. The crowds were chanting anti-Jewish (not anti-Zionist) statements in Arabic. Calling for a war to free Al Aqsa, and reciting the phrase ”Khaybar Khaybar, ya yahud, Jaish Muhammad, sa yahud’ ( Khaybar, Khaybar, O Jews,  The Army of Muhammad Will Return ) – in reference to the attack by Muslim soldiers on native Jews in Khaybar in 628ad.  There were also cries of death to America and Israel. You can see a short clip of the footage here:

The image below is of one of those leading that ‘Khaybar, Khaybar’ chant. He is holding a sign from the Palestine Solidarity Campaign, and is surrounded by other signs both from the PSC and Socialist Worker.

Khaybar

A generation ago, this type of hate used to be on our TV screens, and we would view with horror, the antisemitic chants and hate being aired in capital cities like Beirut, Damascus, Tehran, Baghdad, and Tripoli.  As we watched the outpouring of anti-Jewish rhetoric, how safe we felt in our western homes. Today, we see it on the streets of London. Calls for a religious war against Jews, at a demonstration supported by charities such as War on Want, and logistically assisted by the PSC and Socialist Worker. The hard left – aligning with an antisemitic Islamic war cry.

Who else was there? Jewish Voice for Labour of course. Glyn Secker, their secretary, even spoke at the event, no doubt ‘oblivious’ to the anti-Jewish chants filling the air. It is obscene that this group, using the proxy name ‘Free Speech on Israel’, was actually given additional legitimacy by Tommy Sheppard inside Westminster only a few days ago. Is this really what you wanted to give a platform to Tommy?

Within the crowd, comments about ‘bloodsuckers’ could be heard, also ‘believe me we’ll eat your blood’, along with other antisemitic statements. These groups, all of them, need to be held to account for aligning with blatant anti-Jewish activity in London.

London demo

Establishment inaction

In the name of Free Speech, cries of ‘death to America’ ‘death to Israel’ and calls for an Islamic war against Jews go unanswered on our streets. The Jews of the UK look around and ask themselves when somebody, anybody, will take any notice. Our Government and police operate a strategy of containment. Let them get on with it, they think, because again, the alternative is to face the hate down – the last thing that any Western government really wants to do.

One day it will have to act, because this type of hate, will eventually force the issue. In the meantime, for as long as only ‘Jews’ are the target – it is far more convenient for everyone to pretend that the toothache will go away all by itself.

 

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191 thoughts on “Islamic war cries heard, as antisemitism runs free on the streets of London

  1. Not all of Jerusalem sits inside Israel’s internationally recognized boundaries. Only the Western part does. A bit of research wouldn’t go amiss.
    So you found one Pratt chanting khaybar ya yahud. Go to any far right Zionist rally and you’ll find plenty of Jewish one staters and BF/EDL supporters. Does that mean all Zionists support the far right? Of course it doesn’t.

    1. Oh Dickie, saying Jerusalem is Israel’s capital, doesn’t preclude it also being a capital of a future Palestinian state, nor does it suggest you recognise Israel’s Sovereignty over both east and west parts of the city. You are just being silly. As for the ‘one pratt’, err no, those (more than one), leading the chant were singing it, many in the crowd joined in. Not to difficult to find footage of it, after all, a little research on your part surely wouldn’t go amiss.

  2. Saying Jerusalem without qualifying west or east does mean Israeli sovereignty over both parts, Israeli and Palestinian.
    And there were fewer pratts there than BF\EDL at pro Israel demos

  3. Wiki reckons ‘President Donald Trump recognized Jerusalem as Israel’s capital on 6 December 2017, but Secretary of State Rex Tillerson clarified that the President’s statement “did not indicate any final status for Jerusalem” and “was very clear that the final status, including the borders, would be left to the two parties to negotiate and decide.”‘

    David, you insult Mr. Mullet by telling him that he’s being “silly”. Be an honest man and admit that you made a mistake by claiming Israel “is inside Israel’s internationally recognised borders.” Trumpesque style. UK prob. doesn’t believe Jerusalem is in Israel but is Corpus Separatum.

    “internationally recognised”? You’re on a sticky wicket there, David in relation to Israel and its unilateral actions.

      1. sorry Mike – when you first turned up you had a habit of posting numerous posts at once, several of which were personal attacks. I simply placed your posts into a moderating queue. None of which (as you know) were ever moderated before posting. There was legitimate cause to consider you a spammer (I do have them here you know). I have just removed you from the list – so it shouldn’t happen anymore.

    1. I see nothing in Tillerson’s remarks that contradict me. England could tomorrow negotiate away Southampton, but to recognise it today as part of the UK, is a pretty ordinary thing to do. You are making all this far too complicated. If Israel builds a library in West Jerusalem, nobody, not even the Arabs, will raise a squeak. Even if they did, nobody would take any notice. Why? Because clearly there is international recognition that Israel has legitimate sovereignty on that land. It’s a bit of a pointless argument.

  4. Personal attacks? … as in calling someone “silly”, David? Don’t remember …. remind me, shall apologise if so. Trouble is, you have such a wide description of antisemitism that “personal attacks” may be fanciful on your part.

    1. That’s not true at all. You are clearly not paying attention to my blog. You do have this habit of making blanket statements about me as if I am a monster in your head. Let’s play a game – what do you believe I consider antisemitism that in your view isn’t antisemitic?

  5. Do YOU, David, believe that ALL of Jerusalem is Israeli territory, within Israel. i.e. as Israel claims?

    1. I believe that question irrelevant. The Jews have the strongest claim of all, to total sovereignty over all of Jerusalem. They are also perfectly within their rights to keep it and call it the spoils of war. If they do hold onto it in a final settlement, I would expect everyone living inside to have full citizenship and be equal under the law. Not sure why anyone would oppose it – if everyone has full rights. However, if in the interests of a peaceful settlement with either the Arabs of the West Bank, or some type of Jordanian Federation, Israel signed on an agreement that gave some part of that land in return for full peace – I would happily support that too. Why wouldn’t I? For me, the argument is always about people and their rights, not land. Paramount to everything is that the Jews have control over their own borders – because the world has no right to pretend it will provide Jews with safety – beyond that principle, I would have been a happy Zionist with the 1947 borders, the 1949 borders, the post 1967 borders, and so on. Things have changed since 1947 because Arab violence and rejectionism changed them and history rewards winners.

      1. David this is straight out of the Israel lobby playbook. Mike didn’t mention Jews. He asked whether you are of the opinion that the whole of Jerusalem is Israeli territory. ” It is irrelevant ” is code for ” I don’t want to answer that question”.

        The question is still a question and has an answer whether you think it irrelevant or not.

        Why won’t you answer it ?

        1. I did answer it Stephen, and in full. Perhaps you should revisit my response. In short – I am of the opinion that all of Jerusalem is under Israeli control, they have every right to keep it (with the caveat mentioned earlier), but if they choose to let some of it go, in return for peace, I have no problem with that at all. Israeli decisions are for voting Israelis to make. It is after all a democracy. There is no denial of critical human rights involved in Israel keeping or not keeping all of Jerusalem. The whole thing is a straw man built up to help perpetuate a conflict.

          1. Not quite David. The only basis for a right to keep it all is that it all is Israeli territory. Or is this right to keep it all based on something else that I haven’t thought of.

            1. Yes, and I said that at the moment they hold it, they acquired it legally in a defensive war, and they have every right to hold onto it. If they choose to give any of it up, to make peace with the Arabs in the West Bank or some type of Jordanian Federation, then whatever they let go of, will belong to whoever they sign an agreement with.

              Eventually I hope there will be peace, and as the geopolitical landscape looks today, if peace is to come, I think Israel would want to and need to relinquish land for that peace. However that landscape might change drastically. I think you are seeking something that doesn’t exist. There is fact, and there is reality, and there are issues that need to be resolved. Our world isn’t static, and it looked very different 100 years ago, and will look very different 100 years from now. There is no permanent, or perpetual in history. You are trying to nail down air.

  6. David once again you issue an unambiguous call to action. Then you typically back off from it. What would you have the government and/or police do ?

    1. I was quite clear – I think the groups involved that sponsored or supported the demonstration, should be asked to justify logistical and organisational support for a demonstration that called for a holy war against the Jews, and the police should do their job and check to see if such declarations break any laws. We all know they operate a policy of containment, which means at times they permit people to break the law, for as long as they can, because they consider the alternative to be a riskier strategy. I am arguing that in this case, it is a short-sighted policy that will backfire.

      1. David this is just a part of your campaign against JVL for their being the wrong kind of Jews. The notion that the police don’t hold JVL ” accountable” is because the policy is one of ” containment” is risible. The idea that an org might be criminally responsible for the behaviour of someone that takes part in the demo is…..well I can’t improve on risible.

        1. you are confusing two separate issues. There are individuals and there are organisations.

            1. no Stephen, that isn’t true. You seem to be suggesting organisations take no responsibility whatsoever for any action taken in their name. They called for the people to come, they gave them flags – and this is what came out. In theory, these people are diametrically opposed to everything the organisations claim to stand for. If they claim to stand up against racism – here is racism – let us hear their voice.

    1. It is hardly interesting. It is an embarrassing hotchpotch of nonsense. I would be ashamed to put my name to work like that. Can you imagine if I did the same, simply took photos of people at events and then suggested they were terrorists simply because they had turned up. I could create a top 300, and have Tonge labelled a vicious antisemite and terrorist supporter, because she sat next to Sandra Watfa at the Free Speech event. Sorry, the whole thing is risible. It shows how desperate the other side are, that they try such a strategy.

      1. But David you do do the same.

        This is image of Man leading chant of ‘Khaybar Khaybar, ya yahud, Jaish Muhammad, sa yahud’ – in London last night. Other image is of him surrounded by @PSCupdates & @socialistworker banners – don’t tell me there is no antisemitism on the left.

        1. Oh Stephen, that is weak. I do not do the same at all. The man leading the chant is holding a PSC sign, all those holding signs around him, are joining in with the chant. Those chanting are guilty of the chant – nobody else. Those organisations have provided the logistical support for this event and they are perfectly capable of issuing announcements distancing themselves from such comments. I haven’t pointed to a man who is at the event, who isn’t chanting, turning him into an antisemite merely through his presence. As I said, Jenny Tonge sat next to Sandra Watfa, it simply would not cross my mind to blame her for something Watfa has done. It is puerile, absurd and without any value. It is done to smear, because he has no other argument.

          1. You pointed to nameless men and women. And your response here is a departure from your original statement. That is to say that those around him are antisemites because they are around him and since they are PSCers this proves that there is antisemitism on the left.

            And you are perfectly capable of of issuing announcements dissociating yourself from the expressed views of , Harvey Garfield and Sharon Klaff. But you choose not to do so.

            You do however, seem to think it is incumbent on JVL to issue disassociation statements.

            1. As far as I am aware, I am not an organisation. And I have, for example made clear statements when asked, such as suggesting I oppose disruption. As for ‘people’, you have to do better than naming names. If you ask me about a specific comment, I can respond to that, but I will not disassociate from someone just because you don’t like them, or someone they hang around with.

          2. Straw man David. I am not talking disruption I am talking racism, and you know it. Don’t get the point about you being not an organisation.

            Sharon Klaff………..

            “It never struck anybody amongst the Jewish community in teh UK that just as we the Jews and Israel are subject to adverse propaganda so are the EDL demonised. I have met some of them and spoken with them and they are salt of the earth people fighting for a democratically free England and Englishmen based in Christianity and the morals and ethics of the Old Testament, just as we are fighting for Israel and Jews based in the same ethics and values of the Old Testament. Just as we have little in common with Islam and the liberal secular “elitists” who desire that Jews, Israel and the EDL would simply pass on by, so does the EDL. As I said many times before, Jabotinsky taught us that in times of strife we must fight the greater enemy together with those whose greater enemy we share. We all share the greater enemy that is Islam and all it represents in its efforts to destroy the Judeo-Christian ethic that is our Western Civilisation and we must hang together in peace for the sake of peace.

            ”Hey Richard – great piece! Nice to see the view fromWagamamas as it is evident that the suport was miniscule!! Bravo to the youngsters who came out for Israel – no violence on their tongues and no hatred in their eyes; and thanks to the EDL who supported us from across the road, resepecting the fact that many amongst the Jewish community did not want them to mingle with us, unlike the hate filled mob sporting Hizbollah flags emblazoned with a rifle, supported by those frock-coated filthy bearded Yiddish speakers. They will one day have to account to God for their sins!”

            1. That one is simple – Never used a biblical argument in my life, and reject the politics of the EDL. These are not my politics. I cannot stand extremism or racism of any sort and openly reject it. Racism is a weakness, seen in much of society. An unfortunate part of humanity that we need to fight against wherever it arises. It is a vile disease that has seen the slaughter of hundreds of millions. I seek neither to understand it, accommodate it, or align with it.

    2. Very disappointing as quite a few of us were left out and asking to be included. Don’t you think it a little pathetic that someone with a conviction for credit card fraud and theft should be trying to make some non existent connection between supporters of Israel and some right wing individuals who saw fit to turn up at a protest . Oh and did I mention Greensteins years as unemployed, druggie who took part in squatting. Or the fact that his long suffering father , a Rabbi and staunch Zionist, effectively erased junior from his life in his latter years so much so that he never got to meet his own grand daughter . Greenstein is too easy a target for him to go around defaming people but that’s what he does and why he is so reviled in the Palestinian Solidarity Movement ( How is that plea to be readmitted to the Executive council going Tonyle? )

      Oh and did I mention his suspension from Labour on the grounds of his alleged antisemitism ? No ? Well I have now .

      1. Oh and did I mention your pleading with Roberta Moore,then a European organiser for Victor Vancier’s Jewish terrorist group the JDL. to join your Ahava counter demos. Go on Harv tell me it isn’t so

        Oh and did I mention that only the vilest shit would try to make capital like that out of someone’s real or imagined private circumstances.Nice company you keep David

        1. You seriously have to be joking. Just a few days ago you were talking up how ‘interesting’. the Greenstein blog was. A hatchet job, that detailed were some people live, mentioned some were single parents, listed were they work or people’s businesses, and on top of it all, drew ridiculous connections about people simply because they were in the same room as others. Even a call for these people to be ‘physically driven off’. Horrendous – and that you are keen to associate with?

        2. Do keep up Stephen . It is all there to see on Greensteins blog . Just go into archives or use the way back when site. He deserves everything he gets .

  7. I’ll go first in your ‘game’.

    My view is that antisemitism is criticising, attacking or abusing Jews solely for the fact that they are Jews.

    Anything other, such as voicing an opinion that some Jews milk the holocaust to gain sympathy or to be appeased for any misdemeanors are but opinion based perhaps on observation.

  8. “There is no denial of critical human rights involved in Israel keeping or not keeping all of Jerusalem.”

    Critical? Why these specifically? All common to Jews and Arabs?

    1. Not sure why you are picking on the word critical. The freest Arabs in the entire region are those enjoying Israel’s freedoms. The Arabs of Israel do not have their rights denied – the rest of the Arab world should be so lucky. Whether or not Israel holds Jerusalem should not be of any interest to the humanitarian – only whether or not the people inside are free. This is why I said it was a straw man.

    1. Please do not quote cold war or post cold war UN resolutions here as supporting evidence against Israel. Unless you wish to suggest and forever uphold the idea that the combined wishes of China, Russia and US are where you place your universal values – I have no interest.
      As for who struck first – please grow up. According to your principal, the UK & Commonwealth were the aggressors in World War 2.

    2. Who struck the first blow is not relevant here. The inadmissability of the aquisition of terriitory by war, established by the GC’s and reaffirmed by the SC makes no distinction between defensive or offensive wars. It doesn’t matter who started it.

      David may be relying on East Jerusalem being occupied territory and on the rights of the occupying power. Of course occupiers have responsibilities as well as rights. Israel is in wholesale abrogation of those responsibilities and therefore forfeits its rights.( as the occupying power)
      Having said all of this I am more than happy for Jerusalem to be the capital of the de facto one state between the river and the sea. It is the obvious choice. I merely am trying to establish that we are on the same side on this.

      1. not relying on any of it. I am relying on history and what happens when nations acquire territory through war. The ‘inadmissibility’ is clearly nonsense as most nations borders are products either of conquest or defeat in war. Your universal statement negates almost every non Island border on the planet.

        1. Attila the Hun may be in sympathy with that David but the world has moved on. There is an admittedly hodge podge system of international law. It is a bit of a mess I admit but the GC’s and UNSC are at the centre of it and both affirm the inadmissability of the acquisition of territory by war. I know Israel is a rogue state but well that is its problem

          So if your only basis for Israel having the right to keep it all is a spoils of war argument then well…….

          1. Except it wasn’t, and you clearly have only taken one part of the argument to use. What you are also doing, as Ian often points out is entirely deflecting from the post itself. As I have often stated – these are rabbit hole discussions, deliberately designed to engage everyone in a meaningless circular discussion, that makes everyone think the argument is about what you want it to be about. It isn’t. Israel isn’t a rogue state, go argue with the UN about Russia and the Ukraine. The discussion was about people calling for religious war on the streets of London. So why don’t we just focus.

          2. Not quite David. If the post was about some people on the streets of London calling for a religious war against Jews I wouldn’t be participating in this. I wouldn’t be wasting the wear and tear of my keyboard. You ventured into calling for orgs involved in organising and and calling for the demo, to be held accountable by the government and the police. for the behaviour of some individuals. That is, criminally responsible. The main purpose of the post is clearly to smear JVL who you seem to regard as some kind of nemesis.

            You backed off a little by saying they could issue statements distancing themselves from these people.. I merely am saying that you demand of others what you do not require of yourself.

            In your response above you distance yourself from the EDL but not from those you collaborate with that express support and sympathy for the EDL.

            I have been here before. In Scoffies first flush the other side of his interregnum, the Jewish establishment including officers of orgs he claimed to represent, refused to take any action. They simply came out with the deflection that we consistently condemn the the EDL, for example here, here and here. The attitude seemed to be that he may be a fascist moron but he is our moron.

            The Jewish News seems to have belatedly woken up and smelt the roses but not so David Collier.

            Then you come up with the mega deflection of you don’t disassociate from people because Stephen Bellamy doesn’t like them.

            1. Oh Stephen, you are putting words into my mouth, then walking down the old tired road of guilt by almost ‘non association’.

              I do not think the chants are acceptable – I think they cross lines, that demand action. I did at no point suggest the groups behind the march are ‘criminally responsible’. It isn’t a perfect analogy – but it will do – If Man United supporters rampage, I’d expect the club to swiftly and publicly distance themselves from such behaviour – without any ‘criminal responsibility’ being involved. If they refused to do so, and I’d expect public pressure to play a part, I would also expect the police to have a word, reminding them of their responsibility (not criminal), as the ‘club’ who brings these fans together, to stress how unacceptable such behaviour is. Football’s organising body, the FA, understanding the implications, could fine the club, as a way of trying to force the clubs hand. Failure to listen to the community – whilst not criminal (although perhaps at a certain point negligent), would go a long way to highlighting problems within the club leadership. You could even argue that the club even likes having thugs rampage through streets, or is simply too weak to face them down. Whatever the problem, we could fairly start to suggest something in the DNA of the club is askew.

              Then there is the hypocrisy. You are desperate to play the guilt by association game with people like me, but when organisations visibly stand up in front of crowds calling for religious war against Jews but ignore it, you seek to do cartwheels in attempts to distance them from the hate they are clearly more comfortable ignoring than opposing. As a side note – the JVL are not my nemesis- I am theirs.

              And then there are your constant attempts to pretend you are proving something is distasteful about my attitude to racists. Even going so far as to call my attempts to highlight your own adherence to fascist tendency – a ‘mega deflection’. It isn’t a deflection at all – you do not get to decide who is acceptable and who is not. You gave me a quote which I rejected. I also reject the politics of the EDL and do not align with them. You cannot align me with racists, simply because you would love to do so. Nor can you place individuals before me, and attack me for not finding them guilty when you yourself placed them on trial and declared them so. It’s such a cheap, fascist, McCarthyite strategy. Where I have the choice, I will choose to stand away from or disassociate with groups I disagree with. I am not guilty just because for different reasons and motives, we all end up at the same event – just as innocent bystanders at the demonstration are not guilty because others made Islamic war cries. The organisations – they clearly have an additional and collective responsibility. Bottom line – there are screams for a holy war against Jews – and you are worried about who I sit in a room with. Yours is such a repetitious argument Stephen and so transparently weak.

  9. “There are individuals and there are organisations.”

    David, was Shai Masot an individual, or a representative of an organisation?

  10. David, if my definition of what I consider antisemitism and what is not antisemitism differs from your own then you have my answer.

    1. I asked you for specific examples of accusations of antisemitism I have made you disagree with. You were the one who said I paint with a broad brush.

  11. Are critical human rights a subset of human rights, a subdivision made by yourself?

    1. not at all. I think it is pretty universal. Take the recent occurrences in Spain. Are the human rights of Spanish Citizens being denied? If so, do you think Spain should be dismantled and boycotted because of it? Or are some infringements less critical than others?

  12. “being silly” … “please grow up”?

    You are are one rattled man, David. Suggest a cuppa.

    1. Not rattled at all Mike. This manner of deflecting from defeat on a point will not wash with me. Do you argue that England was the aggressor in World War 2?

  13. My brush paints “My view is that antisemitism is criticising, attacking or abusing Jews solely for the fact that they are Jews.”.

    David, if your brush paints broader than that then your brush is adding ornaments.

  14. Stephen, I am aware that Egypt did not attack Israel and therefore had to coorect David’s untrutj whether others think it irrelevant.

  15. England was the ally of a country attacked by Germany and hence was drawn into the war, as was Jordan later.

    1. Mike, this is not an argument of integrity, it is one of propaganda. If England’s southern waterways were cut off by France, England would consider it an act of war. The problem Mike is that you seek to demonise every action by Israel, even the ones that every rational nation would take in its place. Propagandists do that. If you don’t want to have a serious discussion, but rather seek to score empty victories – I have no interest in engaging. Back on topic – earlier you said that one bloke had spoken of a religious war – now there is footage that shows several…..What do you make of that?

  16. David, you recently wrote “. I am sure that you’d agree people screaming at those people in Stamford Hill to dress like ‘normal people’, would be an antisemitic act. ”

    No, it may be that the screamers dislike the ‘non-British’ dress that these people wear, as with hijabs.

    1. Again – an argument without integrity. Reality and the real world, isn’t based on how you can try to make something seem different to what it is. You argument is entirely racist. It is the argument of the BNP and EDL. Well done for highlighting your political affiliations so clearly. You argument is a reason for example to prefer whites, because black isn’t the traditional colour that is seen round these parts. Putting aside colour, it is a reason to reject all cultures, all manner of dress codes. When this type of racism is leveled towards Jews – it is called antisemitism. If you cannot maintain at least a basic level of integrity, I will lose interest in you really quickly.

  17. “nations borders are products either of conquest or defeat in war”?

    So, David, since the Romans conquered the area 2 millenia ago, the area did not have any Jewish ownership, nor did they have any rights to it…. according to David. Have a care, you’ll be accused by the zealots as being a ‘self-hating Jew’, or even ….. (drum roll) … ANTISEMITIC!

    1. Yes Mike, by some, at the far right of Israel’s spectrum, I would be considered a self-hater, ignorant, non Jewish or whatever. As for talk of empire builders – your point is a non point. Had people like you not existed, it is highly possible the Jewish people would have disappeared altogether and the entire discussion would be irrelevant. It isn’t though, and by the turn of the 20th century, it became clear that the correct answer for the ‘Jewish problem’, was for them to return home. Which they did. Live with it.

  18. “earlier you said that one bloke had spoken of a religious war ” I did, did I ????

    1. Yes, and I am not going to play the game of a troll. What do you think of the crowd of people who were chanting for religious war against Jews?

  19. ” You argument is entirely racist. It is the argument of the BNP and EDL. Well done for highlighting your political affiliations so clearly. ” There’s a motto, ‘look before you leap’ . In your case, ‘think clearly before you leap’ would be appropriate.

    “When this type of racism is leveled towards Jews – it is called antisemitism.” Flawed logic, David. It could be racism, towards non-Brits. You seem to be hungry for slights. It’s your living.

    1. Mike. I am not arguing flawed logic, you are simply one dimensional. If I hit a man in the chest, it is assault, if I do it to a cat, it is animal cruelty, if I do it to a woman, there is a good chance, sexual assault charges will be brought against me, if I do it to a child, I get done for child abuse. My motives, in all four cases, may simply have been about releasing my frustration at whatever stood in front of me.

      If I scream go home to a black man, it is racism, if I do it to a Muslim, it is anti-Muslim hatred, and if I do it to a Jew, it is antisemitism. Your inability to argue from a point of integrity has bored me to the point of resignation.You are insincere you are troll-like, you are clearly racist, and on top of it all you seem to have a specific problem with Jews. Your educational value to me and others here is zero.

  20. I cannot see what is so complicated. Jerusalem was built by King David and since the time of King Herod (half Arab and half Jew)), the only connection the Arabs have is tenuous. Allegedly, Muhammed went to heaven over the skies of Jerusalem. Since 1948, the Arabs have wined and moaned about losing the war of 1948……hence the Naqba.

    1. It wasn’t built by King David. It pre-dates him by a couple of thousand years.

  21. Morning all from the Jewish State. Still a bit giddy from all the celebrations to be honest but have read through the 62 comments including all of the customary trollery. Fair play to Bellers who is at least trying to have a go but this idiot Mikey must be having the professional sock puppets cringing. He reminds me of a street theatre performer that was doing his thing at Jaffa port last weekend. He has a tennis racquet without strings and can pass his entire body through it from head to toe. It’s funny to watch the extreme contortions he has to perform to do his thing but that’s Mikey to a tee. This may play well at Bellers’s 4 hour boozer but I doubt he will be troubling the scorers at our our eternal undivided capital of Jerusalem.

  22. Glad you enjoyed yourself, if you celebrated in Tel-Aviv I hope you didn’t damage any of the windows in the US Embassy. They’ll be needed for years yet. Trust also that the windows of all the other Embassies there remained intact.

    1. Thoroughly enjoyed ourselves Mikey, thanks.

      We tend to leave the destructive stuff to the Arabs as they’re far more experienced at this type of thing. Our lot favour dancing a lot in circles and singing joyfully. We’re the sixth happiest nation on earth you know!

  23. Seems the destruction of Gaza by Israel isn’t shown to Israelis then.

    No wonder they’re the 11th happiest in the world.

    1. No Mikey, we get full coverage. It makes us very happy. Every tunnel destroyed, every rocket launch pad inside a residential house, every Jihadi mortar unit on a hospital roof blown up means less dead Israeli civilians. We ought to name streets and schools after our pilots but that would just be gloating…..and it’s 6th happiest Mikey. We had a good year. All together now “From the river to the sea Israel loves its Vic-tor-ee”

  24. Seems it’s really 11th, Ian.Must make you, an eternal victim ,quite happy..

    Naming after pilots is, I suppose, a change from naming them after your terrorist PMs; Begin and Shamir.

    1. Ah well Mikey, if victimhood is decades of military victory over our enemies, self determination and security in our Jewish State with a liberal democracy sitting in our eternal undivided capital and happy and prosperous population of Israeli Jews and Arabs and really great shwarma on every street corner, I think I’ll take it. I’ll leave you to worry abut whether we’re the 6th or 11th happiest.

  25. So, you’re not victims, it’s all been lies and deceit? Amazing .

    No worries, Ian. Enjoy your glorious,righteous narratives.

    Notice that welcoming Sweden is ten places happier than yourselves.

  26. Wouldn’t fancy Sweden Mikey. Bit chilly for me but we do have a local IKEA and the staff there all seem very happy but they are Israelis. Perhaps it’s something they put in the meatballs here in the Jewish state.

  27. Mikey in the interests of those readers who are less interested in the relative happiness of Scandinavians perhaps you would prefer to debate this important point over at David’s sister site Beyond the great fjord

  28. Sick by any standard Mikey; sick of having to come to this admirable site run by a decent man who, by any reasonable and objective standard is attempting to promote sincere and honest discussion and read the sort of self serving, transparent propagandist bile trotted out by every half witted troll with an axe to grind. It’s a depressing sign of the times that social media has given every voiceless, impotent idiot a channel to vent; idiots like you and certainly me. It promotes cowardice of the highest water where we can be deeply offensive and whine at a perceived readership in tones that we would never dare use if we had to look anyone in the eye in Bellers’s 4 hour pub. We can hide behind stupid names and distant keyboards and protect our obvious inadequacies and ill informed positions by simply stepping back into the shadows. Meanwhile David keeps doing his work by throwing the spotlight onto groups of people who wish harm on other groups of people in public spaces and scream their hatred unchecked. David challenges us to discuss this inhumanity openly and honestly and instead finds himself providing a space for cretins like you to live out your prejudices in his comment section for tiny moments of self gratification. He generously allows his most dishonest contributors a mostly unmoderated voice to deflect and distract from his work, to demean him and others with whom they have personal issues and completely ignore the rights and wrongs of the vocal hatred expressed in public spaces by one group of people towards another and this generosity is abused; abused by you and every weedy www-warrior like you for your own self indulgence and vanity. So am I sick Mikey? Dead right I am. But at least I get to suffer in the comfort of the Jewish State.

    1. Ian has it spot on and deliberately skewing his words in an attempt to deflect further with even more imaginary accusations is more than tedious. This morning, I saw a news update from Balochistan, where another group of women and children have been whisked away by security forces. So I had a look at the HRW world report for the area. Incredibly, there will be no public protests for those kidnapped. Nor for those killed under blasphemy laws, for belonging to the wrong minority or against the 1000+ annual honour killings. In fact, in truly twisted and sickening absurdity, whilst all the anti-Israeli activists are silent on the issues, Pakistanis engaged in anti-Israel protest. The faux outrage is all as transparent as it is antisemitic.

      1. Thank you David, although I’m quite intrigued by Mikey’s ‘pizz’. Is this troll euphemism for something ? i wondered whether he had misplaced his takeaway order at the local Italian but didn’t want to get him started on whether Sicilians were happier than Israelis. He seems like the sort of chap that would pretend that this sort of thing was quite important.

      2. I wonder whether you are equally angry about Israelis chanting Death to Arabs at their demos? Will you be writing a blog about these.

        1. Evidence please. David has the courtesy to support his assertions with accredited images and photos, you know, like a proper commentator. Without it we’ll have to assume you just made that up.

      3. “another group of women and children have been whisked away by security forces.”?

        See how similar Balochistan’s security forces and Israel’s IDF are, but the former having the courage to take the women as well. The IDF take children under the cover of darkness.

        1. Yeah Mikey and babies and puppies too but only Arab ones and we take them all to the big factory on the hill and make sheet plastic from them all. We call it The Vinyl Solution.

  29. Another excellent article, ruined, as always, by the endless going-round-in-circles bickering by Mike and Stephen. No doubt, trying to ruin David’s excellent site is their chief purpose.

    How sad that the UK contributed to the criticism of the USA at the UN Security Council, proving that there is no backbone to stand up to Arab bullying here. The sheer nonsense to prattle on about “protecting the Peace Process” when the Palestinians have refused a State in 1994, 2000 and 2007, a State which could have included Arab areas of Jerusalem including Haram esh-Sharif.

  30. The UK is right to condemn the US at the UNSC for Trump’s bull-headed intervention but the one good thing to come out of it is that the two-state solution is now proven to be dead. In fact it’s been dead for a long time, only they’ve kept banging on about it to fool people into believing they mean it. Let’s face it, there is only a one-state solution, with equal rights for all. Unfortunately, Israel as a colonial and apartheid state – notwithstanding Ian Kay et al’s protestations to the contrary – is unlikely to agree to that and will move further right, and further bloodshed is inevitable.

    1. No protestations from me Mrs J. In the same way I would not raise an eyebrow if you came here claiming to be the ghost of Hattie Jacques and had come to give me my bed bath. I only deal in realities not fantasies.

    2. Oh and did I mention your pleading with Roberta Moore,then a European organiser for Victor Vancier’s Jewish terrorist group the JDL. to join your Ahava counter demos. Go on Harv tell me it isn’t so

      Oh and did I mention that only the vilest shit would try to make capital like that out of someone’s real or imagined private circumstances.Nice company you keep David

      1. Greenstein is fair game especially when he posted all the info to his blog ( screen saved) a few years ago. Being called a shit by a two bit Provo antisemite like you is praise indeed .

        1. Crickey Bellers, is this chap right? Are you a Provo as well as an antisemite? I won’t insult you by insinuating a value, two bit or otherwise.

    1. Rightyo. So how do you know all your stuff Mikey? Are some of your best friends Arabs or do you just “reckon it”? ‘Cos with some of your comments anyone would think you were actually there. Tell us Mikey. Go on. How do you get all your info?

  31. Oh Ian, you’re such a hoot…and if I may say so, showing your age… ooh Matron!
    And I’m showing mine, for remembering her with affection. Maybe that’s why I enjoy our little chats. Doesn’t alter the argument though.

  32. Ray, the main purpose of my visit to this site is to counter the wild imaginings that is spews forth.

    Had Trump had more brains, knowledge and backbone he would stood up to the continuous demands of Netanyahu. The UK is less simple-minded than the US. Trump’s just a fool who can’t say NO.

    1. you have neither the knowledge nor the necessary understanding to counter anything on this site. All you do is deflect.

  33. I know that they certainly take the children, Ian. The other stuff must be something you know they’re planning.

    1. You ‘know’ Mikey or you ‘reckon’. You need to elaborate. At the moment you make us sound like Baron Bomburst from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang and that would just be silly wouldn’t it? Tell us more about this ‘child taking’ that you know about.

    1. Ah, I see. So you made a mistake by saying you know. You meant to say you reckon because it was in the news. That clears that up. You have to be clear about these things or you’ll have people believing that you were actually there, you know, like David is when he reports things.

      1. Ian permit me to give you a little intro into first year first term first day epistemology

        Knowing stuff is a fascinating idea. We ” know” that water boils at 100 degree C because we haven’t encountered any counter examples. Similarly the chicken ” knows” that when the man comes into the coup he gets fed. She hasn’t encountered any counter examples. Then one christmas eve the man comes into the coup and rings its neck.

        What does it mean to know stuff Ian? When can we say we know something ? Can we only say we know what we have directly witnessed. Think that through if you will.

        Or are you joining Descartes in saying the only thing you know is that you are because you think ? ( In a funny kind of way )

        We know Israel routinely abducts children in the dead of night, whisks them off to a foreign country where they are often subjected to all manner of torture.

        We say we know this on account of the wealth of evidence and the wealth of mutually consistent testimony.

        1. Didn’t understand much of that Bellers. As usual far too clever for a moronic European colonialist like me.

          (That’s just me answering in character. In truth I’d enjoy a discussion in this area but I doubt very much that this is the place for that level of risky honesty and sincerity. You wouldn’t want to let your virtualista veil drop would you?)

          You do reckon loads though. Who are these poor children? Who’s whisking them off? To which countries are they whisked off ? To what manner of tortures are they subjected, knee-capping, punishment beating, that type of thing, and why?

  34. …. and David would have the same agenda as the reporters of the mentioned outlets, Ian?

    1. So what are you saying Mikey, that you form your opinions from bias media sources without any sort of independent corroboration? That doesn’t sound too smart to me. Was it you or one of the other trolls that was demanding that David showed his working out ? After this admission I think that if you’re going to comment here in the future you may need to show yours.

    1. Too subtle for me Mikey. I’m still not clear though. Are you saying you form your opinions from your preferred news sources and then corroborate them independently or just rely on the news?
      I know how most sensible people do this. Just wondered about you.

    1. Mike – you’re like a child in kindergarten who thinks he is involved in the adult conversation taking place around him. You even truly believe you are holding your own. Bless.

  35. Given that Ian doesn’t understand Stephen’s post, perhaps your post should be directed towards him …. but wouldn’t that be anti-semitic of you?

    1. David, I think that this is what must pass as “countering” your work. It seems to be devoid of any actual countering but more a series eccentric remarks and attempted slurs if respondents get too close to the fairly flimsy and fragile core. Mix this with the lack of self awareness of Gareth from The Office or Bruno Kirby’s character in Good Morning Vietnam. – “Sir, in my heart I know I am funny” – and you have Mikey.

      You have often said that it is helpful to test ones views when faced with a serious, honest and robust challenge. It would be interesting if you ever got one here.

  36. Stephen
    Thought I’d remind you of this little prediction.

    Stephen Bellamy on June 19, 2017
    David in all seriousness this made me smile and I don’t mean in a condescending way. It was a pretty good wheeze. I genuinely impressed. The kind of thing I could imagine my daughter organising. It will of course only work once.

    Except it worked again November 4th at the anti Balfour march which was delayed by up to an hour by 100 or so Zionist. Suggest you try predicting the 2pm at Kempton next time rather than making a fool of yourself here.

      1. You’ve forgotten your own drivel.

        35 thoughts on “Marching with (and stopping!) terrorist supporters in London in 2017”
        Stephen Bellamy on June 19, 2017
        Amazing stuff. I guess Israel is saved right ? Anyway David I would suggest that next time you and Richard make a better effort to synchronise your stories o:)

        Reply
        davebt on June 19, 2017
        why on earth would we synchronise stories?

        Reply
        Stephen Bellamy on June 19, 2017
        David in all seriousness this made me smile and I don’t mean in a condescending way. It was a pretty good wheeze. I genuinely impressed. The kind of thing I could imagine my daughter organising. It will of course only work once.

        Reply
        Caitz on June 22, 2017
        Unbelievable, what a stupid comment to a well written report on a well organized counter demo by the pro Israel group.

      1. Actually make that tripe from three years ago. You really have lost the plot mate.
        Almost as interminably boring as one of Tonyle’s missives

  37. But you read it Harv and that is enough to keep me content. And as for the Sunday Mail ( dear God ) you know as well as I do that nothing will come of this ” investigation”. In fact I would be willing to bet we will hear no more of it. But who cares about your little spats with your designated enemies anyways. Better off revisiting the owl and the pussycat.

  38. Hardly . Read the first few sentences before my eyes glazed over so hardly counts. At least I make a para or two of Greensteins bilge before nodding off. You should market your nonsense as a holistic cure for insomnia.

    1. Aw that counts Harv. I will put you down as a fan.

      But my main point is that I am no more interested in your petty squabbles as I was in the days that you managed to get Ahava shut down.

      1. Which makes it all the more difficult to understand why you are so obsessed with Jews and Israel so much so that you continuously post your inane comments to multiple sites and have a blog more or less devoted to the same. Strange that but flattered all the same.

          1. Nope. It’s about you Stephen and all that you are and what you represent . We see you Stephen .

  39. It’s all about the personal grudges with you isn’t it Bellers. It’s good that we’ve got the internet isn’t it? You can get away with any old bollox here, tapping away about this one and that one to your imagined audience. ” Yeah, she’s a pretend Jew….he’s done bird….he’s a bent brief…..she’s a fascist….look at me I’m the only one in step”. You even managed to make some stuff up about David. Bellers for the win!!!!

  40. Yerse Bellers, Nowt like a harmless bit of self indulgence. The real point of social media eh?

  41. No, not really Mikey. I doubt many decent, reasonable people would think that exposing latent institutional racism is self-indulgent? Probably says more about you that you do.

    I’ve also noticed your fixation for mentioning payment. This has arisen a few times in your recent contributions here. It last occurred as your last resort when failing to rebut the expert testimony of a decorated and widely respected former British Army Officer . As I recall he raised your hackles by endorsing the military strategy of the IDF, a huge inconvenience to you but one that you could not counter with any comparable or credible testimony so you sought refuge in the allegation that he had been paid to be an expert.

    You also continue to mention this in relation to David and his work as if it was somehow a smoking gun in his hand that nails him bang to rights. I’m not sure anyone really understands your point here so perhaps you could indicate why you keep mentioning this as something you clearly see as your trump card.

    P.S Not trying to rub salt in your wounds by mentioning Trump although I’m sure he has made you very cross.

        1. Whaaaa!!! Is that it Bellers? Years of professional media response and that’s your best work; I’ve mentioned money too? I was going to suggest that standards are slipping just a tad but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you’ve let Mikey hack your account. I suggest you change your password. He’s doing you no favours.

  42. ” decent, reasonable people”? Such as Likud voters?

    “endorsing the military strategy of the IDF” Getting what you paid for? Kemp made his statement yey I don’t recall the British Army bulldozing the homes of those related to suspected terrorists, nor destroying a district containing the same.

    In Trump you have a weak-minded, uneducated buffoon. Is he your Goliath?

  43. No Mikey, We’re David. Remember, the winner.

    You’re probably too young or possibly ill informed to remember Dresden.

  44. No, remember that war crime, and others. London blitz, the 2 US nùclear atrocities, the blitzes on Gaza …..

  45. … not just around the city? … the city itself? … with US weaponry?….. hundreds of children killed? … you knew?

  46. That David touts for money to continue his propaganda is a fact, Ian. Not something that Israel and its lobbiers have any respect for.

  47. But Mikey, you’re paid for your trollery here as well aren’t you.

    What is it you make per post to achieve quota $2 a time or is it a day rate? You should talk to Bellers about this. He’s got the copy and paste routine working a treat on all sorts of sites. You should also update your shtick. The Jew Baiting is getting a little tired now so perhaps take another leaf out of the Bellers Guide and start on the personal grudges. He gets loads of mileage out of that.

  48. “But Mikey, you’re paid for your trollery here as well aren’t you. “?

    No, Ian, I give my opinion of what I read on the blog and from its respondents.

    You have an illusion concerning ‘Jew baiting’. Get well soon.

    “Personal grudges”? Believe it or not, some folk object to things, not because it harms themselves but because it is plain wrong in their eyes. Mull the concept, Ian

  49. Media Response Guy; “Getting back on topic…….Is this the respected former British army officer you have in mind ?”
    Me;” No link Bellers so who knows. “

    1. JewishNews article 20th Nov. 2017

      In a column written by Colonel Richard Kemp published in the Jewish News and jewishnews.co.uk on 6 April 2017, it was suggested that Baroness Sayeeda Warsi has sought to excuse the appalling conduct of the barbaric Islamic State terror group. The column also suggested that Baroness Warsi has objected to action being taken against British Muslims who murder and rape for Islamic State.

      We wish to make absolutely clear that these allegations were wholly untrue and should never have been published. Baroness Warsi is utterly appalled by the actions of ISIS and all terror groups (indeed, she is widely reported to be on an ISIS death list herself) and has never said anything to remotely suggest otherwise. She also believes that ISIS fighters returning to the UK should face the full force of British law.

      We apologise unreservedly to Baroness Sayeeda Warsi and have agreed to pay her substantial damages, which she will be giving to charity.

  50. Bellers, you said that without moving your lips.

    I think you’re confusing each other. One’s on about Warsi, the other’s on about Kemp. Do us a favour and come back when you’ve got your stories and your identities straight.

  51. Perhaps you’re thinking of someone else Bellers. The one I meant was the former commander of UN Forces in Bosnia, former commander of British forces in Afghanistan, member of the JIC and COBR and recipient of the MBE, CBE and Queens Commendation for Bravery. I’m only an ordinary fella but those seem to be the credentials of a person who would have a credible opinion on military matters. I did suggest that the prosecution presented its own expert witness to rebutt but this was declined in favour of “something someone read in the paper”. I sense your frustration Bellers but seriously Mikey isn’t doing you any favours and could really do with taking aside for a quiet word on content and presentation.

  52. Yeah, he’s great. Imagine if he and Nikki Haley hooked up. They’d make gorgeous Sikh Christian Zio babies with refined diplomatic skills, an expert knowledge of military strategy and a deep love of the Jewish State. What a couple!

    But anyway back to David’s piece. Are you saying it’s okay for any group to march through British streets vocally inciting violence upon another group?

  53. Thanks.

    So between you and Mikey you’ve got Jew baiting and domestic violence covered. Throw in golf and you’ve got the full suburban axis of evil. Still, I suppose we all need hobbies.

  54. You’re a trier, Ian, I’ll give you that. David must be cringing at your dishonesty.

  55. Haley? What won’t a gal do to earn a buck? Such deception, you’ll see it as a quality I suppose.

  56. Mikey, you’re obsessed with payments. You’d love kibbutz life. The Jew Baiting would probably have to take a back seat but you could work to your hearts content for no money.

  57. I didn’t know about the battle of Khaybar – so I looked it up. Boy, am I impressed! Here’s a quick run-down:-

    First of all, the Jews of Khaybar were a group from Medina that had broken a treaty with the Muslims, so were banished. (Lucky them. In those day s the more normal punishment woud have been death.)
    In Khaybar they grew stronger and were a threat to the trading caravans so the Muslims decided to attack. (Much as the Jews of the Old Testamant did to tribes in their locality.) When the Jews saw that their castles were being captured one by one, they sued for peace. Mohammed accepted their request and the following was determined between the Jewish delegates and the Muslims

    The Jews that took part in the clashes would not be killed. They would leave Khaybar with their children, taking nothing but what an animal could carry. All movable and immovable properties except the clothes they were wearing would be left behind. Those who concealed goods would forfeit the protection.

    After the treaty was signed and peace was made, the Jews made another offer to Mohammed “We know and can maintain and run the property better than you. Let us stay in the land of Khaybar.”
    Their offer was accepted, in return for half of the crop of Khaybar. (This treaty could be unilaterally annulled by Mohammed at any time.) So, the Jews would give half of the share of the land they would cultivate as if they had set up a partnership with the Islamic state in an agricultural business.

    At the time of harvest every year Mohammed sent Abdul¬lah b. Rawaha to Khaybar. Abdullah divided the crops into two and let the Jews choose either part. And the Jews said, “The earth and the sky keep existing thanks to this justice.”

    This is pretty decent treatment at any time – but especially in those days. It also contrasts – very favourably – with the treatment meted out to defeated enemies as described in the Old Testament. And with the comments on Israeli news sites today.
    In fact, it’s about as far from ‘hate speech’, as one can get.

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