12th Feb 2018, Kings College London (KCL). Former Deputy Prime-Minister Israeli Dan Meridor had been invited to speak on the campus. The event was arranged by The Pinsker Center, KCL Israel Society and City Israel Society. The majority of those attending were Jewish students. Because of increasing intimidation, KCL Israel Society issued a statement to address ‘behind the scenes’ issues related to the event:

Jewish Students at KCL ISOC

Because of the strict security conditions that events such as this require, another message was then posted:

KCl ISOC Jewish students

This isn’t normal student politics. These messages are a sign of students under siege. And not without reason. Over the last few years, several events of this type have been disrupted. There had been violence at this university two years ago. Violence that involved the same groups of demonstrators.

External battles

Everyone was aware that this event would face opposition. Below is a screenshot of the Palestine Solidarity Campaign, advertising a call for opposition to a student event. Promoting a call for opposition well beyond the confines of the KCL campus. Intimidating behaviour directed towards students, from a group riddled with antisemitism.  Incredibly, despite our growing understanding of the antisemitism within the PSC, and this type of intimidating behaviour, Jeremy Corbyn still remains a patron of this organisation.

PSC at KCL

We must also remember that in a few days, these anti-Israel activists on campus, will begin a ‘festival of hate’ directed against Israel. A whole week (or more) of events where they will listen to the lies contained within the polished delegitimisation campaign against Israel. They will have their opportunity to chant all manner of threats against the Israeli state.  ‘Apartheid Week’ is coming:

Apartheid Week at KCL

And yet on the other side of this ‘discussion’ it is very different. The Jewish students are under attack. Some hold their head up with pride, but it is absolutely certain some are intimidated into silence. Just one event of this type results in dozens of groups organising an action that tries to shut the event down. It is advertised by organisations off campus that have high level political support. The demonstrators tend to be highly organised, just as we have previously seen on UCL, another London campus.

The shaming of the Jewish students

The protestors came, they stood outside the room, and they tried to make as much noise as possible, to disrupt the event. They call it ‘free speech’, but it isn’t. It is an attempt to deny free speech.

This from an official statement from the KCL Israel Society

They came onto campus this evening with one aim; to intimidate us and shut down our event. They coordinated their voices to scream throughout the talk, without even a minute to allow us to listen to the speaker in peace. There were reported screams of ‘Khaybar’, the battle cry against Jews, and we left the room to fingers pointed in our faces with the word ‘shame’, repeated over and over again.’

When the students left the room, they faced a barrage of cries of ‘shame shame’

As further signs of the ‘external influence’ involved, it was another non-student, anti-Israel group, ‘Friends of Al-Aqsa’ that live streamed the protest. They also proudly posted a video of this ‘shaming’. Notice the first comment underneath the video.

KCL Cockroaches

It is important to note that this comment is not made towards an Israeli official, or about an Israeli policy. It is being directed towards British Jewish students at Kings College London. British Jewish students are ‘cockroaches’. No doubt in need of another attempt at ‘extermination’.

Demonstrators as victims

It is also interesting to record how the demonstrators twist the events. They had chosen to come onto a campus to disrupt an event. The campus security tried, and partially failed to contain the protest. One demonstrator was not permitted inside because he held a megaphone. An instrument clearly designed (outside a door of an event) to disrupt. This became the tweet of the night:

KCL megaphone

So as Jewish students are huddled in a room, struggling to hear what their invited speaker against a background of vocal hate, the demonstrators portray themselves as the victims. In the footage, the security man explicitly references the megaphone (see under his arm).  The person tweeting this is Ayo Olatunji, who is part of the UCL student union, and was part of the UCL protest and disruption in late 2016. More of a concern was this tweet by Ayo:

He claims he was denied, not because of his behaviour, his intent, or the need to uphold free speech, but because he is black. I saw this weaponisation of racism at Cambridge with Malia Bouattia, and recently being used at Warwick by Nicola Pratt. A truly divisive strategy. There is of course nothing about his colour mentioned in the footage.

The protestors have complained to the university. They are in ‘outrage’. Why? Just as I described their dissatisfaction at events at UCL two week ago:

What of the Jewish students?

This is all intimidation. And it works. The university is not capable of fighting a war for the Jewish students, because this is not a battle of students. Palestine Solidarity Campaign advertise it, Friends of Al Aqsa live stream it, off-campus ringleaders turn up to assist in the organisation.

How many of those Jewish students who may have been intimidated by yesterday’s events, will not attend another meeting of its type? Will supporters of those Jewish students now look over their shoulder and say to themselves ‘it is not worth it’? How many of those who organised the event, will not organise another? Will invited speakers not want to come?

Intimidation works because it works through intimidation, not debate. Non-democratic forces are undermining our academic spaces. Values of equality, democracy, free speech are all under threat. When you have Jewish students forced to leave a room surrounded by haters screaming ‘shame’, alongside posts on Facebook calling these students ‘cockroaches’, then you have to accept you are in dangerous territory.

 ———————————————–

Help support my research

I fight antisemitism and the revisionist narrative that demonises Israel. I was recently named as one of the J100 (‘top 100 people positively influencing Jewish life’) by The Algemeiner. My work is fully independent, and your support makes much of what I do possible. This research can and does make a difference.

If you can, please consider making a donation. Either a single amount or a small monthly contribution.  Research such as this is intensive. We need to be there to expose the hatred and the lies. We have to shine a light into the shadows and show people what is happening. Every contribution is greatly appreciated.

Keep up to date, subscribe to the blog by using the link on the page. Follow the FB page for this blog: and follow me on Twitter.

 

Facebooktwittergoogle_plusredditpinterestlinkedintumblrmail

189 thoughts on “KCL – will someone please protect the Jewish students?

    1. That’s a fascinating take on things Stephen. How have you come to this conclusion given the article you linked to.

        1. I was at the funeral. Jason’s suicide is a tragedy. On a personal level, I exchanged several messages with him between September and December. I met Jonathan at the funeral. My advice to Jonathan in recent days was over timing, not content. There are things said in the blog that I believe were worthy of report. There are many things not yet mentioned worthy too, but as I said, my opinion over timing, differed from Jonathan’s. I currently won’t say any more than to offer Jason’s family my sincere condolences and wish them a long life.

          1. ” I currently won’t say any more than to offer Jason’s family my sincere condolences and wish them a long life.”

            Yes David, but you are are not a hopeless narcissist with zero impulse control

            Reply

            1. Bellamy, by the looks of things the only narcissist is you. This isn’t a game! This is a public forum and you are making a fool of yourself!

            2. The jew-baiter projects his own inadequacies and psychological hangups onto others.

              1. Manchester video? Did I miss it. (as for the rest, It is a truly disgraceful blog. Whether Tony likes it or not, just several weeks before the suicide, Tony did link to Jason’s place of work, and the complaints that were made to the professional body, where probably made on the basis of this. There is quite a lot of criticism being aimed at Tony from within his own camp. Despite this as before, my only real comments are to offer the family condolences and wish them long life.)

        2. In other words you’re talking sh*t and can’t back up anything you say. Nothing new there, jew-baiter.

      1. Leah27z,

        God, they teach you Zionists some manners. Mind you, such language betrays who you are, which ain’t a decent person by a long stretch.

          1. Norm,

            Given Zionists are a mixed bag, i.e., many are not even Jewish, its difficult for you to cast your usual line of attack. Still, with Posters like Leah and Edward, you chaps don’t need enemies with friends like that.

          1. I believe, if Biblical texts are to be believed, that Jesus was Jewish. May I suggest you read some New Testament, which far from dripping in hate, is full of compassion, particularly for the poor. As far as Poster Boys & Gals for HATEFUL ZIONISM are concerned, you and Leah take the biscuit. Good to know the the depravity of those allegedly opposed to racism – you lot really want to be ashamed of yourselves. Again, thank God there are 1000s of decent Jewish folk to make up for a small minority of hate filled nutters.

            1. Chris, Not only was Jesus Jewish, so too were his parents Joseph and Mary.

              How many Muslims or mosques were in Jerusalem, or anywhere else in the world for that matter when Jesus walked the streets of Jerusalem???

              1. Given the third Abrahamic-based religious movement did not take root until the 7th Century, your enquiry is rather daft. Still good try old bean.

                1. Chris

                  I am coming to the conclusion that Islam is an Abrahamic faith in name only

                  They have apprpriated the entire Jewish and Christian narrative, and then said they are the final truth and the two previous religions are now dispensable and to all intents and purposes null and void.

                  It is very similar to Christian ‘replacement theory’ but far more widespread.

                  Your critical views on the above would be appreciated (as in formal exchange of views)

                  1. Awfully sorry David, but given I stopped attending any type of Religious gathering prior to becoming a teenager, and never undertook Religious Studies at School, can’t help you much. Although, quite happy to discuss the Peace of Westphalia if that’s of interest.

                    1. So you are running and hiding, Slimeball, because you know you have lost the argument.

                2. > Given the third Abrahamic-based religious movement did not take root until the 7th Century, your enquiry is rather daft. Still good try old bean.

                  So there were NO MUSLIMS in Jerusalem while the Jews where there.

                  Thanks, you good ol’ yob!

              1. Leah,

                Could you please show me any sentence I’ve utilised ‘dripping in hate’. Further, could you please identify where I post on extreme Rightwing blogs, the sort of Blogs you inhabit. You’ll have a hard job and wish you well in this research. Now, do your hating elsewhere please and do remember to take a close look in a mirror each time you are looking for someone who expresses hate by the bucketload.

                I bid you goodnight.

                1. I don’t ‘inhabit rightwing blogs’, Slimeball.
                  I have already commented on your hate-dripping rants against Jewish self-determination.
                  And you don’t get to tell me where to go or where to post.

            2. OOOH, by putting HATEFUL ZIONISM in caps you’ve really hit the nail on the head, aven’t you? Quelle idiot.

        1. Chris

          ‘you Zionists’

          A mindless comment that does you no credit

          Maybe you could be a bit more descriptive with your words to explain what you mean those specific words

          1. Leah and Edward, by their very pronouncements are Zionists. Do you dispute this fact. Further, the language they abuse does bugger all to ‘Bridge any Divides’. You may like sticking up for those who support extreme Rightwing UK political parties, but I certainly do not. The language they utilise is that of racists and they are Zionists, so, sorry, but facts are facts.

            1. Oh please get off your high horse. Some of the posters here are frustrated, that people like you are given a free reign to distort, deflect and lie from what is diligent and intensive research. I get their frustrations. They think I am wrong for allowing you to post here and have frequently told me my strategy demeans the work.

              I don’t agree with the way they ‘bite’ when you bait, and I would rather they didn’t, but I cannot do anything about it. I wanted to, and continue to want to leave the comment section open so as to permit proper and real debate should it open up. But let’s not for one second pretend that you and your ‘ilk’ have some type of moral high ground here – because you don’t. You’re worthlessness is tolerated, and that is about as far as it goes.

              1. From the above text as written by yourself David: “The protestors came, they stood outside the room, and they tried to make as much noise as possible, to disrupt the event. They call it ‘free speech’, but it isn’t. It is an attempt to deny free speech.”

                Now, who does this remind me of, that other person whom you knock around with? Whats his name again. Oh I remember, Jonathan (Scoffie) Hoffman.

                Who will protect us from Hoffman?

                1. you are engaging in whataboutery, and having seen many events with Jonathan present, you clearly don’t know what you are talking about. Is this the ‘exception’ ‘rule’ game being played again?

            2. Chris, you ignorant Socialist,

              You have your panties in a knot over “Rightwing” parties, but when it comes to REAL “Righwing” parties, those with a Koranic slant, which hang gays, impose dress codes on women, stone women to death, cut hands off people accused of theft, establish No-Go Zones for people who don’t obey the tenets of Mohammed, you are oddly silent.

              Why your massive blindspot, comrade?

              May your Nakba continue unabated.

              1. Sounds a lot like Saudi Arabia to me Edward. Guess what, Israel & SA seem to be quite good friends – obviously I detest SA, particularly the ethnic cleansing its undertaking in Yemen, supported by the same Western colonialist powers that support Israel.

                1. Oh yes, Saudi Arabia, the only Islamist entity socialists are willing to slam. Something to do with SA’s support by the US.

                  Ultra-Conservative Ultra-Right Wing Islamist entities (hezbola, hamass, fascist iran) which execute gays, stone women to death, enforce dress codes (beards for men, masks for women) are dealt with with hearts and flowers.

                  If SA hated the US like Fascist Iran, you’d be on your knees to the King of SA.

                  You ain’t foolin’ anyone, comrade.

                  Happy Nakba!

                  1. I’ve had some good times with Iranian workers in Dubai Leah, although they can drink me under the table. That said, none of them struck me as either religious, or, supportive of the Mullah’s in Iran – good working class folk. Oh, and none ever mentioned Israel or expressed any genocidal tendencies, unlike some of your Peers here, who believe ethnic cleansing is wonderful. I don’t!

            3. I don’t “support extreme Rightwing UK political parties”, Slimeball. And I have not used any ‘racist’ language.
              Your sick and sickening hatred is clear for everyone to see every time you pour abuse on the concept of Jewish self-determination in the Jewish homeland (you know, Zionism).

    2. Stephen

      Is Jonathan trying to prevent others from voicing their views

      Have not watched your clip because of time constraints

      The protestors at KCL remind me of pictures of German and Austrian civilians abusing Jews and/or encouraging others to do the same as part of an organised anti-Jew festival

      They have replaced the word Jew for the words Zionist and/or Israeli and relying on peoples ignorance of the facts, hope that they will increase the ranks of the Jew haters

      The ‘lefty liberal neo-fascist and Islamist coalition’ of Jew haters have changed words to suit their new methods, but they all still look remarkably like the early years of Nazi rule in Germany.

      The killing of the Jews had not begun when this behaviour became common in the mid to late 1930s’ , but the demeaning and demonisation of Jews into a sub-species (like cockroaches) that were sub-human and needed to be seperated from society so that they could be controlled were the necessary ingredients that eventually made the Holocaust possible

      Wondering how our own dear little Mike will try seek to justify and excuse this blatant anti-Jewish sentiment and intolerance that seems to have become such a staple on our wonderfully ‘unenlightened’ campuses today

  1. What a disgraceful demonstration by the PSC (and associated Rent-a-Mobs). What happened to thought, to nuanced argument, to reasoned debate? What happened to listening? To INTELLIGENCE? Depressing indeed.

      1. Stephen

        Please take into account that we have never shut down a meeting.

        We have only ever disrupted Q & A when it has become obvious that we are being ignored, and/or they are trying to prevent a question being asked by the meeting chair interupting and attempting to shorten the question while allowing their favoured narrative unlimited amplification

        1. Actually engaging bellend the jew-baiter is a waste of time and energy. Further, given that he is a jew-baiter first and foremost, he doesn’t deserve it, nor are his comments worthy of rebuttal. Just scorn.

  2. The situation in those Universities that allow antiIsrael/ antiSemitic intimidation on campus is particularly worrying. I wish I had an answer. But the sight of young people in a University being attacked because they want to educate themselves about what is happening in Israel is horrific, and this is no accident – the protests are designed to be as horrific as possible.

  3. The power of muscle memory! David highlights prejudice in a British Uni and the very first response is an instinctive panic reaction designed to quickly deflect from the point and perpetuate a peevish personal grudge. Classy move Bellers.

    1. Oh Ian if you think I get in a panic over David’s stuff, you doubtless think there are fairies at the bottom of your garden. And I don’t do personal grudges. You are out of your depth. You don’t have the remotest fucking clue what is going on. Does he David ?

                  1. Well i will admit that my face is not as well known and notorious for its racist far right associations as yours Harv.

                    ” Today I have done badly, tomorrow I will do better”

                    Antoine St Just, l’enfant terrible de la revolution

        1. Stephen

          A lot of people knew about Newmark, but as with all things in this vein, everyone is waiting for someone else to put their heads above the parapet to allow the flood gates to open

          Looking at the disaray in the ‘oh so saintly’ NGO market in the UK at the moment’
          the JLC imbroglio is small beer

          Waiting for this NGO situation to expand and implode as the ‘holier than thou do-gooders’ have their faces and hands dirtied by the serial allegations of impropriety and mendacious behaviour that are swirling around

          At least in Israel they investigate and prosecute these types of actions, unlike the rest of the world that goes into denial and tries to sweep the whole bussiness under the carpet

          1. You think Bibi is going to be prosecuted Richard ?

            As for Newmark it has been well known that he is as bent as a wad of £9 notes for a long time. I am going to write it up early next week. I have some pressing cat issues to keep me busy til then.

            Newmark is a one man crime wave.

            1. Richard as for everyone waited for someone to put their heads above the parapet…..

              Then someone did. Who ?

              Well here is some clues.

              Who had access ? ( to the audit )

              Who had the relevant grudges ? ( motive)

              Who is without any semblance of moral compass ?

              For whom was the timing right ?

            2. not sure about Bibi. There are complaints from within the prosecutors office that the police have blown the balloon up larger than it is. The question is not whether the attacks on him are politically motivated or not – they clearly are – the question is whether because of this, they have put together enough threads to carry out a prosecution.

              Newmark – no comment.

      1. I love it when posts here start with “Oh…” or “Tut, tut”. Against the backdrop of some really offensive exchanges it’s so twee. Spot on though Bellers I have no idea what’s going on inside your little activist ecosystem. Though if I’m honest, for someone that has used almost every thread to snipe at some specific bete noir and has a rogues gallery with piccies on his own blog the “I don’t do personal grudges” remark sounds like a right load of old bollox. Anyway mustn’t dawdle. I’ve got the fairies planting out the hummus trees this morning.

          1. I’m now going to have to add your one liners to the personal grudges, name-dropping of persons unknown and obscure acronyms to the things that I “don’t have the remotest fucking clue” about. Just to go off topic what do you think about prejudice in British universities?

              1. Stephen

                Ian asked you a very relevant and important question, which you then very rudely brushed off as unimportant and of no interestet to you.

                This entire thread, and much of Davids’ work relates to Universities and the blatant way in which a small, but very vocal minority of students and staff, openly display extremely anti-Jewish tropes that harken back to a period in our not to distant past

                Criticism of Israel is all very well; but the performances of the various anti-Israel groups on campus perform well outside legitimate criticism and venture into the well documented realms of blatant Jew hatred

                University administrations are fearfull of involvement for fear of being branded ‘racist’ or some other form of insult; and knowing that the blowback for ignoring Jewish grievances is minimal, they just ignore the sensibilities and fears of Jews

                Please do grace these pages with a more informative discusion than your contribution to date on this important subject

              2. So does that make any of it okay? Seems that its not cool to be prejudicial towards a black guy, a gay person, a disabled child or a transsexual but rag on a Jew and it’s a “Meh” and a shrug of the shoulders…..oh and then take the piss out of David or call him a liar for pointing it out. You guys !!

  4. Reciprocal action is an absolute necessity. Protest their meetings and speakers like for like .
    Unfortunately Jewish students appear to believe they are playing from a level playing field vis a vis the campus administration , Chancellors , Trustees etc . They are not . Only a large non violent opposing protest will cause sufficient embarrassment, that the university in question will sit up and take notice. These are public events and the public has a right to attend . Cordon off the meetings with a no pasaran line so that these neo fascists and their handlers are unable to get close enough to disrupt and no platform .

    1. Look, as Bellers quite rightly points out above I “don’t have the remotest fucking clue” about UK activism on either side so tell me, what does “reciprocal action” look like? Loads of Jewish kids in duffel coats shouting the odds as a load of other kids in duffel coats, led by a few obvious non-kids with megaphones ranting on about how they hate Arabs, that Arabs are genocidal and illegal occupiers. What is the imagined endgame of this strategy?

          1. Ian
            Are you saying it’s ok that Jewish students should have to endure open season on them . If the university ignores the actions of the proto fascists who intimidate Jew and non Jew wishing to attend a public debate, what other suggestions do you have in mind ?

      1. Endgame sufficient to cause university authorities to clamp down on protests designed to disrupt outside debating halls . There needs to be a 50 metre cordon around the room . Protest is fine but not disruption but as long as it’s on the bds agenda it needs to be reciprocated.

  5. Harvey, firstly please do not mistake my question for some sort of unseemly attack. I was merely trying to understand how you envisaged your strategy unfolding. In the world of like for like action I can only see a scene in which two rival groups stand a measured distant apart shouting at each other. Then David can then write his stuff about antisemitism and Opposite David can write his stuff about antiArabism or whatever and both sides cancel each other out in the noise. It’s a plan but I’m sure that human ingenuity can construct something more worthwhile.

    1. Well, if you are so smart, Ian, YOU ‘construct something more worthwhile’. In the meantime the Jewish community will look for ways to oppose left wing, and right wing, fascism wherever it can.

  6. Stephen

    If he is prosecuted in open court and found not guilty, he can rebuild his career

    If he is not prosecuted I think he will be faulty goods and his career is over

    I think the dye is cast and there will be a prosecution

    The verdict; I won’t venture a guess

  7. The prosecutors rather like contributors here have built a case against Bibi on whataboutery. We can’t get him on the subs so what about the cigars? Thinking about it there are many similarities to the tactics used here. There is a heavy reliance on attritional pursuit, demeaning accusations and the guilt by alleged association. There is a transparency to the assault from political rivals who have allowed their frustration of perpetual opposition to drive them to the witness stand. Some like Lapid have been rumbled for their ill intent . Others like Bennett are waiting to see who’s still standing when the music stops. All the time Bibi’s popularity with the electorate grows and in all likelihood he would win an election if it was held tomorrow. Even for his detractors he represents stability and the safest pair of hands for the times ahead. Personally I am not a fan but at present he remains free, more than capable of leading the next coalition and probably will.

  8. Ian Kay, going off topic is simply playing the anti-Zionist’s game. David has made it clear on several occasions that he wishes us to stay on topic. I think we should respect that.

  9. Norm, I agree that we should stay on topic so let’s focus on the matter at hand. Occurrences like the one reported above are not going to go away because one group gets more megaphones than the other one, nor proves to be more disruptive at public or private meetings. The real instigators, the people that use the traditional groups like students as the Forlorn Hope have far too much invested to be deterred from their purpose by angry Jews. In microcosm do you think opponents will stop posting their bollox here just because the one side keep saying “Nazi” whilst the other says “Zio” ? Would you?

    Truthfully, it astonishes me that we didn’t put this debate to bed decades ago when the Arabs and their supporters invented the Palestinians and their fantasist aspirations and began their orchestrated and sustained propaganda campaign whilst blowing up planes, shuls and buses to punctuate their demands. Idiots like Mike and others that post here are just the fall out that blindly bought into the nonsense. If you’re a Jew hater to start with, it isn’t a big step. Our unwillingness over the years to take this noise seriously and mount the obvious rebuttal didn’t help. With the hardcore antisemites, it never would.

    Luckily we have time on our side. We will play the long game because we can. We have a happy population, a strong and growing economy, the IDF securing our borders and a great big toy box in a sand pit down Dimona way that keeps all of our enemies pretty focused. For now we need to spend our time redressing the propaganda imbalance and work cohesively to ensure that more national and local governments outlaw BDS, more international banks close their accounts, more media companies refuse to place their ads and more businesses continue to disassociate with them, exposing them for the racists and antisemites that they are. Work towards their eradication and other dominoes will soon start to fall

    I’m not smart Norm. Yesterday I was accused of “not having a fucking clue what’s going on” and I couldn’t agree more. You’re strategy may be far more impactful than anything I could suggest and give Jewish communities a real sense that they are on the barricades together and actually doing something. I know that in the diaspora this has value. Good luck with the good fight but choose your enemies carefully. Aiming your fire at people like me is missing the target by miles.

    1. I disagree. It is vital to confront the antisemites in public. One reason they have grown stronger and bolder in their public displays – which spill over into all areas of public life – is the weakness of Jewish leadership, who prefer to be galuti and bend the knee and tug the forelock,

  10. Chris

    Of course they are Zionists; no one is disputing that fact.

    The issue is your flippant use of the phrase ‘you Zionists’.

    That is a collective slur on each and every person who is a Zionist because you disagree with the way someone has said something.

    The next step to logically follow on from that is the typical comment ‘you Jews ,sorry I meant Zionists, are all money grubbing bloodsuckers’.

    You may not have meant what you said in the context of my example, but these types of generalised ad hominem remarks have the amazing ability to transmogrify into something else, as history has shown us time and again.

    The casual throw away phrase that develops its own life, far removed from its original intent.

    Categorising and bracketing people into groups can have some very unpleasant effects and lead into name calling and racism.

    Please choose your use of words with more care.

  11. Stephen

    Its not a matter of who stuck their head above the parapet; rather who found the couirage to be the first to do it.

    Go to any lecture or meeting and wait for Q & A; a general reluctance to put the first question, and after the first question is asked, everyone finds their voice and is able to talk.

    1. Oh my meeting days are long gone Richard. I just want to sit on a bench over looking Roaring Water Bay watching the whales and thinking about referring expressions. But Zio guys and gals keep bugging me

  12. Chris

    In all the meetings I have been to where Jonathan was present, I never heard or saw him attempt to stop a meeting like the anti-Israel brigade do at every opportunity.

    I have seen Jonathan get vocal during Q & A when he tries to ask a question and is intentionally and purposefully ignored by the meeting chair.

    What is even more abhorrent is when the chair realises that it is a pro-Israel person asking the question, the chair either tries to prevent the question being asked, or attempts to curtail the length of the question, trying to make the question as unintelligble as possible, thereby rendering the question meaningless.

    I have seen these action innumerable times and besides being frustrating, are downright unpleasantly rude

  13. Chris

    You made a lot of allegations about Saudi Arabia in Yemen, but offered no facts and information other than what appears to be your opinion and point of view.

    I am totally confused by the goings on in Yemen; maybe you could try clarify the position for me.

    I don’t know who is fighting whom, and for what.

    And as for the Saudis being accused of ethnic cleansing, I have read nothing on that nor heard it on radio and tv.

    So if you could let me know where I can find that info , I would be grateful

  14. Chris

    A am a little confused about you saying that some posters are supporters of ethnic cleansing.

    To the best of my knowledge I have not seen anything vaguely like that, so if you could tell me who they are, and show me their posts, I will join you in condemning them.

    If you cannot do this then I can only assune that you are hurling accusations lacking any foundation in truth

    1. Rather than me say anything Richard, as your ignorance on the facts seems ill of purpose, I’ll let the facts speak for themselves: Here’s one of the tropes from a poster called Edward from this thread:
      “Edward on February 13, 2018
      Chant this, comrade…

      From the river to the sea,
      Pal-e-SWINE will never be
      🙂”

  15. Dick

    Not quite sure how your comment about the ‘black skinned person who must get out of someones country’

    Could you fill me in so I can understand the context and the relavence it has to this blog

    Thanks

  16. Stephen

    If you don’t mind me saying, you seem to be a willing and sometimes enthusiastic participant in this blog.

    Nothing I would like better than sitting on a nigh mountain after a long hike, but life is vast, and meetings and blogs are part of it all

    By the way I’m still waiting on your explanation about your calling Israel
    1) a basketcase
    2) the most dependant country in the world on foreign aid and assistance

    You are not a fool so please do me the courtesy by at least attempting an explanation

  17. Someone above said that “it is vital to confront antisemites in public”. Certainly true but to what end? It is too easy to make bold remarks in the abstract, full of keyboard hubris and zero substance. But when all of the students and their puppet-masters have gone home what is left other than another report by David, some social media soundbites littered with mutual abuse and about 10 minutes of faint self gratification before the rage returns? It all seems so Groundhog Day. By now both sides know what they are going to face over and over and yet seem content to bring the same fight. No problem for the rank and file confrontationalist; Turn up, chant slogans, take photos with phone, chant more slogans, write blog, have biscuits. But to a relatively disinterested world outside this tiny ecosystem it just looks a bit…meh.

    I remember walking through Manchester in 2014 at the height of some protest about a shop selling Israeli stuff and walked past a big group of Israeli flag wavers with megaphones shouting at a big group of opponents with megaphones who shouted back. As I walked up the road beyond them a couple of staff from one of the shops were having a fag break outside and one asked the other what was going on. “Something to do with the World Cup I think.” came the reply.

    So if the name of the game is simply to tick box entitled ‘Confrontation’ then its mission accomplished. If you want to achieve something worthwhile the maybe think again.

    Perhaps a start would be to stop parading an endless stream of embassy folk, hard done by Jewish victims of terror, holocaust survivors and sympathetic scholars. Instead take the deceitful use of language like apartheid by BDS firmly by the bollox and take a stall at their next roadshow. Invite speakers like Salim Joubran, Israeli Supreme Court Judge and an Arab; maybe Alaa Waheeb, the most senior Israeli Arab Muslim officer in the IDF or perhaps Prof. Ahmed Eid, Head of surgery at Hadassah Hospital and an Israeli Arab. Let their voices be heard and let little Jocasta and her SOAS chums in their Ronit Zilkha kefiyahs and box fresh floral Doc Martins scream apartheid at them. Even Polly Toynbee would have to put a double shift in to spin that one.

    Of course, as contributors on both sides have rightly pointed out, I know fuck all.

  18. Off topic but could not resist to mention that Greenstein’s hearing into his alleged antisemitism begins on Sunday in Brighton . He’s sickeningly compared himself to Dreyfus in his opening J’accuse in which case I hope Sussex Friends of Israel maintain the French theme and show up with their knitting needles and knit him a straitjacket. No doubt he will get off with a slap on the wrist and a recommendation to take a course in antisemitism ( pot , black etc ) which he will refuse. The other outcome is that he will bore the panel to sleep in which case there will be a further adjournment.

  19. Chris

    That is one statement; I get the impression from the way you worded your statement that you think this it is a prevalent thought on this blog

    I don’t agree with stupid racist statements, even if they are taken verbatin from the anti-Israel and anti-Jewish Palestinian songbook, from the mouths of your Palestinian friends.

    Whereas I believe that the Palestinian claim for a country from the river to the sea with a small minority Jewish population is their intended aim and one the vast majority of Palestinians are working for, the same desire among Jews is in the extreme minority and opposed by the majority of Jews.

    I dislike racism and I dislike people who accuse me of asking questions with ill will as you have done. I asked a perfectly civil question and received an unpleasant nasty remark from you in return. Are you incapable of holding a civil discussion without adding specious unnecesary commentary. There have been a number of nasty comments directed at you, but you seem to be deserving of them, because your commentary is of the same standard

    Your entire argument/accusation against ‘you Zionists’ must be a little larger than a single comment that as I say is taken directly from your ‘non violent friendly’ stone throwing and generally Jew hating Palestinian friends; if you hope to condemn the majority of Jews with this asinine comment you need to do a lot better

  20. Chris

    Offering the sub-standard words of the Independant as proof of an argument is stupid; the newspaper may once have been relevant but by its inability to serve as a reliable news outlet, ended up consigning it to the nether world of tabloid type news on the internet.

    If I wanted to spend endless hours trawling the internet for information, I would have done it; but you made a claim that I have not seen or heard before and I was requesting that in the hope that you could supply a source of factual information saving me the time of having to spend hours sifting fake news fews for the truth.

    Refering to the United Nations for information is also one those suggestions like above; the UN has proven time and again that most of its resolutions and actions are driven by political concerns that strive for consensual acceptance by the majority. Very little that the UN produces ever seems to go beyond useless rhetoric that seldom relates to the reality on the ground. The Security Council is curtailed by the Chinese, Russian and US veto, so seldom allows much to progress.

    So when I asked for information ,I was assuming that as you claim a university education, thay you would be able to supply a little more than mundane links to dubious facts.

    Do try a little harder

  21. Chris

    Incidently, death tolls, structural damage, refugees, famine and much more is the staple of every war, on every continent, involving all nations involved in fighting, through the entire course of world history. It is the nature of war, unpleasant as that reality is

  22. Stephen

    The use of term ‘you Zionists’ was used as derogatory put down against what has become the aspiration of the majority of the Jewish people.

    The imagery that your use of the term conveys is one that is understood to mean a particular mindset that represents views on wellfare, politics, trade unions and more; it does not refer to a particular group defined by ethnicity, colour and religion

    The Conservative Party is a political organisation that covers many different groups.

    Zionism is recognised by most as a specifically Jewish endeavour, so sometimes when phrases and terms are directed at Zionists there may be an ill-concealed animus against Jews inherent in that term.

    Not all negative commentary is anti-Jewish; just that which seeks to replace the anti-Jewish terminology of hate by the use of terminology that tries to disguise that hatred by using different words and phrases

    Therein lies the difference

    1. Richard,

      Please don’t utilise the well played trope that attacking a political movement is in anyway racist. Let us be blunt, 40% of the UK electorate polled in the past 6 months state clearly they’ll vote Tory, does that mean that 40% represents myself? Certainly not!

      Now, when I’m here I’m discussing posters on this Blog, the majority of whom are Zionists – as I don’t support the Zionist movement, which is a political movement composed of both Jews and non-Jews, and with regards most posters being ardent Zionists here, the use of the term ‘you Zionists’ cannot be construed as an attack of the Jewish community at large globally, most of which does not reside in Israel. Indeed, and as you are aware, many within the Jewish community object to Zionism and its political belief that it speaks for all Jews. I’t does not, the same applies with the Tories, they do not speak for me, nor do they represent my values.

      Now, and given I associate with only about a dozen folk who are Jewish, none of them reside in Israel, none are Zionists in the political sense, and less than a handful offer support for Israel – the Jewish folk I know are British, Canadian & American’s and not all are on the Left.

      Now, I don’t accuse my Jewish peers of contributing to Israeli crimes with regards Palestine, based on the fact they are not Israeli’s, nor can I accuse a majority of my Jewish peers being Zionists, which they are not. As far as my British Jewish peers are concerned they are British, and most, like me detest the Tories. And like me, the majority are critical of Israel.

      Now, I’m a political animal, don’t have much time for Religion, nor too much time for extreme forms of nationalism. I’m keen on human rights and combating racism. Alas, quite a few posters here are ardent racists, which I’m certainly not.

      Now, go utilise your tropes on someone else, perhaps those racists that support Israel, but object to Jewish folk living among them – which to me is anathema.

      1. It isn’t 1925, and Zionism isn’t just a political movement. It is like suggesting that people talking about killing a child is an argument over contraception

        1. Really Richard, in the UK we have Nationalist movements, be they Plaid Cymru, the SNP or Sinn Fein, that these are both nationals and political organisations cannot be disputed. I’m afraid the same applies to Zionism, which was a late nineteenth century nationalist grouping with a desire for a national home to be founded by political means or violence. Now, both Plaid Cymru and the SNP disavow violence, whilst Sinn Fein did not until the Good Friday Agreement. Please pull the other one. As for your comment on the Poll I’ve attached, a Poll conducted in San Francisco by Jewish bodies, the survey speaks for itself. End of!

    2. Richard,

      You claim Zionism is the aspiration of the majority of the Global Jewish Community, or is that Israel as a little confused by your wording, however, funny how in California, specially the San Francisco Bay Area the evidence of respondents to a Community Poll does not compute with your claims, I’m sure Jonathan Hoffman and Mr Collier will have something to say about this, but, facts are facts – may I suggest you start reading from Page 50 onwards: https://jewishfed.org/sites/default/files/Bay%20Area%20Portrait_2.8.2018%20without%20hidden%20slides%20%5BFINAL%5D%20Website%20version.pdf

      1. lol, I always enjoy it when someone who attacks my research, pulls up a survey such as this, and from atop a mountain of ignorance and hate, screams the words ‘facts are facts’. There is little sillier than people who don’t understand Judaism, what it means to be Jewish, or Zionism, analysing a survey about it all, and then placing more stones on top of their mountain.

        1. David, give it a rest, Judaism is a Religion, one of the three Abrahamic traditions, whilst Zionism was pushed by secular Jewish nationalists at first. So, can you please define what Zion you speak of first, and then focus on the historical record of modern Zionism, which has its origins in Nineteenth Century European Nationalism – See Greece, see Hungary, see Germany, see Italy.

          1. There is a healthy straw man you have created. Chris can you give me a single reason why I should engage with good faith, someone who clearly doesn’t understand Jews, is blatantly obsessed with talking about their religion and ideology, and from a position of clouded bias, undoubtedly seeks to destruct their central pillars of identity.

            You keep spouting absolute nonsense…. Judaism is a religion… bla bla bla…. Secular Jews… bla bla bla.. Hang on…. if Judaism is a religion, then what on earth is a secular Jew…

            1. David,

              There are three Abrahamic traditions or religions, or so its states in most Dictionaries – I rely on Collins & the OED. Personally, I was raised in a Christian environment (Methodist), but have no religious affinity, namely I’m secular. I also hold a British Passport, a political construct, that makes me British, as British in fact as any Jewish person, that is a person raised within the Jewish faith, who is also British. As for ethnic origins I have zero idea of mine, although Saxon & Celt heritage seem apparent by both family surnames, I’ve yet to take a DNA test to determine what region I evolved from, although, I’m happy to subscribe to the Eve Theory, namely, I’m out of Africa. Indeed, I may even have Neanderthal DNA in my DNA, which by the way lived in the Holy Lands, I have no claims on the Holy Lands though!!!!

              1. well that was a long way around to arrive at completely avoiding the question.

                You said you were born Christian, but because you have no religious affinity you are now secular. I agree – if you say you are secular and have no religious affinity, you are not a Christian. So can you answer the question raised by your last post. If Judaism, like Christianity is a religion, then what is a ‘secular Jew’ (the term you used)? Or at the extreme – why do people who are self-identifying as Marxists, who do not believe in god at all, who are totally opposed to Israel, still suggest they are Jewish?

                1. David, You are quite risible and your argument full of many holes. So, the UK predominantly is a Christian nation, that’s one with a large amount of Christian baggage. Alas, most in the UK now, although raised in a Christian environment are secular – as children parents used to send kids to Church or Chapel. Not so today – check out CofE & CofW attendance rates to qualify this fact. Now, I have a choice, all others have a choice and we exercise that choice – its called FREEDOM.

                  As for you other BS, I’m afraid to say I prefer democratic syndicalism to Marxism and for my socioeconomic edification prefer Veblen to Marx/Engels. As for economics, I’m in the Heterodox School of Thought.

                  So, what are you? An Israeli fascist no doubt, or at least, a crazed Zionist.

                  1. nope, still not dealing with it Chris. All this running from a simple question. Aren’t you tired? I don’t care what type of nation the UK is, the people inside are free to choose. None of that deflection deals with the issue at all.

                    You are NOT A CHRISTIAN because you are secular. How you were brought up is irrelevant because Christianity is a religion and you chose to reject it.

                    What is a secular Jew?

                    1. David,

                      If you are raised within a household that practices Judaism and then reject that religion/culture, you either convert to another Religion, or become secular, its that simple. Further, given the UK has had waves of human immigration over multiple centuries, most have assimilated with each other. This of course is an on going process. You may deny that Jewish folk are 100% British, I don’t, particularly given many have DNA specific to the Holy Lands, which was settled by our ancestors out of Africa. Now, please don’t deny the DNA record, which suggests we are mostly the same, which is why we breed with each other – if we were genetically different, interbreeding would be impossible. Again, I find your views racist I’m afraid, which is why I oppose extreme forms of nationalism. I’m favourable to economic nationalism, which is quite the opposite to what you seem to support. End of David.

                    2. indeed like nailing jelly to a wall. This constant deflection over Britain and DNA is avoiding the question. Let us try again: You just said.

                      “If you are raised within a household that practices Judaism and then reject that religion/culture, you either convert to another Religion, or become secular, its that simple.”

                      If you replace the word Judaism with Christianity, it works because you are no longer Christian, you are secular. ‘Secular Christian’ is a contradiction in terms. Yes, in Christianity, it really is that simple.

                      But YOU used the term ‘secular Jew’ because it is not a contradiction in terms. Even people without a single religious strand or without religious upbringing or belief define as Jewish. Many Jews consider themselves varying shades of ‘secular’ If Judaism is just a religion, how can something that is a contradiction in terms in Christianity, form a major part of Jewish life?

                      Please do try and answer at some point.

                    3. Have you tried nailing jelly to the wall?
                      Ian is right that Jew-baiters think they can define Zionism. But they also think they can define ‘Jewish’.

                    4. David,

                      Ever heard of CULTURE & Environment, Culture is the environment you are raised in, namely that of your family and community. Of course, the actual environment itself also plays a part in human evolution. No doubt Zionists stopped evolving in Biblical time’s, which is strange given the appearance of Hasidic Jews is closely related to their culture and respect for that culture, much like the Anabaptists in the USA and dates back a few hundred years. Again, its seems racial issues are important to you, alas, I don’t do race as we are all humans and i certainly don’t urinate on a persons culture, which is rude. I’ll stick to being working class, secular and inclusive of all, not ‘exclusive’ like you and your chums here.

                    5. It is okay Chris, I gave up expecting you to answer the question long ago. You painted yourself into a corner, everyone can see that, and I thought I’d let you squeal for a while. I am letting you go now.

            1. Leah, it may annoy you, but humans have an ability to sleep around quite a bit, that is, we are mostly mongrels, namely the by products of DNA liaisons. I like being a mongrel and don’t give a fuck about ethnicity, this based on the fact that the human gene pool is limited in size, so the further one casts the net, the healthier our offspring are, namely, a deeper gene pool means less genetic defects. I’ll leave eugenics to the eugenicists, which has been highly discredited. I’ll also leave extreme nationalism to the extremists, such as those who run Israel, or like yourself, are Zionists with scant regards for others whom you determine are outsiders.

              1. When Muslims (Sunni v Shiite v Wahabbi v Salifi v Sufi v Klingon) can’t get along with fellow Muslims, it’s no surprise that Muslims can’t get along with Infidels.

  23. There is a lovely irony here that can’t have been missed. David writes an article indicating a hostility to Jews in British Universities and contributors respond by berating Jews for wanting to be in control of their own futures. Some neat sidebars as well; gentiles giving lessons to Jews on what Zionism ought to mean to them, statistical analysis of global Jewish demography and of course precedents from some of their best friends who naturally are Jews. Luckily the Zionist dream came to fruition and the Jewish State thrives and grows. Horribly inconvenient for the haters but quite excellent for my children and the generations of my family that will follow them.

    1. Indeed, Ian. It’s we who decide what Zionism means, not the Jew-baiters.
      Not just inconvenient: it send them into paroxysms of impotent rage.

      1. Well Leah, such matters in a liberal society are usually up to the individual, unless of course your follow Jonathan Hoffman’s criteria, which it seems you do. If a person desires to term themselves Jewish why not. Of course Zionists & the Israeli state allegedly speak for the entire global Jewish community, which is a bit of a fallacy, as many oppose this point of view. Still do continue, as no doubt you are now a supremacist, whilst me, I’m just a bloody mongrel and proud of it.

        1. You left out the rabid, hydrophobic, wormy azz dragging on the carpet, fascist parts of your mongrel heritage..

          1. Edward,

            I cannot be accused of being a fascist & Marxist at the same time on the same Blog by two Zionist fanatics, just does not compute. And, my own heritage and community I came forth from has fought fascism, that’s actual fascism, consistently, starting with the Spanish Civil War. Now fuck off.

            1. > I cannot be accused of being a fascist & Marxist

              Really? The National SOCIALIST SHlTler and Soviet SOCIALIST Non-Aggression pact of 1939 to 1941 proves you WRONG, you duplicitous sack of SHlTler.

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact

              BTW, fuckwit, If you really come from a heritage of fighting fascism, actual fascism, you’d be fighting Islamofascism – the Islamofascism that murders people ALL OVER THE WORLD.

              Islamofascism like 9/11, Londons 7/7, Charlie Hebdo, Bataclan, Nice truck jihad, Manchester, genocidal Islamofascist Iran, Hamass, Hezbola, Al Qada. ISIS, Taliban, Muslim Brotherhood, Al Nusra, Al Shabab, Boston marathon, Orlando, ….

              So “Chris Rogers”, Please, FOAD like a good little fascist.

              Happy Nakba!

            2. “two Zionist fanatics” – yes, those horrible people who believe in Jewish self-determination.
              You will be telling us next that those supporting Black civil rights are ‘nasty fanatics’.
              “my own heritage and community I came forth from has fought fascism” – because opposing self-determination for Jews is SO anti-fascist …
              You pathetic slimeball.

          1. Could you lot make up your minds please, one moment I’m a fascist, the next a Marxist and the next a slime ball. However, since when democratic syndicalism has been fascist I don’t know, and the Syndicalists fought both fascists and Marxist-Lenists in the Spanish Civil War. Still, who am I to argue.

            1. here you are fighting neither. You are trolling Jewish people who are trying to defend themselves against those who attack them. That’s it, that is all it is. Why you do this, what your driving motive is, we cannot decide for you.

  24. David, as the resident knower of fuck all that is going on, who’s this Greenstein bloke that’s fallen foul of the Socialists? I searched the site and found a chap that was trolling your articles last year, suggesting that you imagined most of the antisemitism that you reported. Is this the same fella and if so, how delightfully karmic !

    1. Yes, it is him. Tony is Jewish, the son of a Rabbi, and out with the Marxists. He helped found the Palestine Solidarity campaign. Obsessive, compulsive, prolific and intelligent. He seems to get turned on by baiting Jewish Zionists, and revels in the applause he receives from a few twisted followers. He is an outright propagandist. On occasions where there is a clear error in his writing, he deletes the comment rather than edit out the mistake. I have already collected enough evidence on my side, to indicate he is fully aware the material he posts is riddled with factual errors (rather than just opinion), many of them viscous.

      He has a fixation with pre-Holocaust Zionism and its relationship with the European Geo-political environment of the 1930’s. I believe this may be because it is the most spiteful way to bait Jewish Zionists. Under the cover of the ‘Rabbi’s son’, he has been able to walk a line, whilst his historical distortions have attempted to legitimise those times when he has clearly crossed that line. The problem with people like Tony, is the level of contextualisation and knowledge required to fully understand and counter the propaganda. His arguments are not post 1967 politics, but focusing on the historical roots of the arguments over Zionism. Putting aside his Nazi / Zionist collaboration distortions, he wants to pretend that the Bundist v Zionist argument is still relevant today, this, even after the entire Bundist movement burnt in Auschwitz.

      I view him with distaste, not because of the errors or the politics, not because of the anti-Zionism or the lies, but because I think he is coming from a bad place, and this over-spills into his writing all of the time.

                1. Stephen, thanks for that one. It sounds like your describing a UN meeting about Israel.

      1. “Obsessive, compulsive, prolific and intelligent” – err, no. Low cunning is not intelligence.

  25. He sounds like a peach David. It is fascinating how it has suited activists to chose dates on which to build their arguments and then fixate, to the absolute exclusion of external discourse, on the abstract academic ideas that slot precariously into these narrow constructs. I have never had much time for these positions. As soon as you get past Balfour they are onto ’48. Get beyond that and its ’67 and if that fails its 3000 BC. In other words it’s any date in a storm. In truth the only date that matters is today. The Zionist dream is alive today. Today we are in control of our own borders, our own safety and our own security. Today we make our own decisions in our own home and today my children will encounter no discrimination in our universities, colleges, work places shopping malls and sports clubs because they are Jews. There are Jews in the world that don’t fancy this as people here love to point out. Today, at least they have the choice.

    1. Yes, I agree. Though there is something truly twisted and sinister about obsessing over the Holocaust era in an attempt to bash Jews.

  26. You’re right but consider the motivations of the protagonists. In a no win game like online arguing, everyone has to develop their own idea of what victory looks like. Damaged narcissists like your bloke seem to see victory as the accolades from a perceived audience as you suggested. He took the view that the greatest accolades come from the greatest hurt caused so if you want to attack Jews forget the small pair of tweezers go straight for the bloody chain saw. Huge hurt equals huge applause – real or imagined. Very nasty.

    Then there are those that seek some short term self gratification from a snide little jab from behind the net curtains. People like Mike seem to fit this bill and the fuel of hate means that they have to keep this up because they just can’t bear the thought of seeing a Jew get a free pass. Also very nasty but quite feeble in execution.

    An anomaly like Chris has watched The Beach too many times and has enough chips to fill the Intel factory in Ranaana twice over. His MA (hons) in Near Eastern Masturbation says as much as we need to know about the value of a university education these days.

    Bellers is just Bellers. As he rightly says I haven’t got a fucking clue what’s going on but I do think he like you.

    So on balance I’d say that you were 1-0 up, but who knows how long is left on the clock?

    1. Ian,

      Truth will be out Sir, its that simple. The Left of the political spectrum is quite keen on this, which is why many are happy to acknowledge the UK’s crimes as a colonising power – that is, we don’t ignore or gloss over the facts, which are horrendous. Regrettably, the Zionist apologist on these boards don’t accept the actuality, that is the historical record. Israel is a colonialist state and built on land theft and social cleansing, which I oppose. Allegedly, in the eyes of the Zionists here, this makes me an anti-semite, namely, that I oppose colonialism, oppose nationalism and have concerns for my fellow human beings. All of whom are equal in my eyes. At least you acknowledge that many Jewish folk don’t share your ambitions, don’t support Zionism and don’t place Israel central to their identity. Indeed, in the real world most are overcome just by trying to survive one day at a time. What’s written here by Mr Collier is but a distraction, one that underplays crimes of Israel, which, allegedly is whiter than the driven snow, which is poppycock.

      1. “Israel is a colonialist state” – more crap from the screeching fuckwit and utter slimeball. One can’t be a ‘colonialist’ in one’s own homeland.

  27. Chris, you talk in slogans. People just don’t say this sort of stuff to each other in real life. It’s like all your lines blew up in the air and landed back on the table in the wrong order. There is obviously nothing that we can discuss because I don’t recognise anything you say and in any event people don’t come here to have their minds changed on anything. I think it suffices for us both to be thankful; me for being alive at a time when I am able to live in the Jewish State with my family free from discrimination and prejudice in my daily life; you for being alive at a time when the power of technology allows you to present your opinions to whomever you want and where the largesse of humans give you the freedom so to do.

  28. Chris,

    Please do read the whole post before focusing on little bits as too many do.

    Deary deary me; a well used trope. Meaningless bumful.

    The Conservative Party is a political movement; I said as much, very explicitly.

    The Zionist Movement, a political party or movement.
    This ratses two very important points; 1) who gives dear Chris the right and honour to decide for Jews and Zionists if Zionism is a political entity or not and 2) does Zionisam meet the criteria of a political party or movement.

    Political movements are groups that can be defined as groups that are formed to create a ruling elite following some form of electoral or power grabbing process.
    Zionism is a movement that possesses more than just political drive.
    Zionism represents the ‘NATIONAL LIBERATION MOVEMENT of the JEWISH PEOPLE’ ; and as such represents a serialy disadvantaged and persecuted minority scattered across the globe.
    Zionism represents all Jews that aspire to Jewish emancipation (religous or not).
    Zionism in its early days was led and driven by the group of Jews called ‘ashkenasi’, mainly consisting of western Jews, but this is no longer the case as the ‘mizrachi’ or oriental Jew has actively staked a part in the Zionist Dream and in many cases is now the majority in Zionism.
    Zionism comprises all Jews regardless of their religous/non-religous affiliations, regardless of colour and regardless of which country they happened to be born in.
    Zionism has many strands of political affiliation; not just one. There have been dozens of Zionist political parties that have encompassed political ideologies from across the entire political spectrum, from left to right, ftom red to green, from communist to capitalist etc etc.

    Therefore to call Zionism a political movement as you do, represents your particular viewpoint that must be rejected as totally irrelevant to Jews/Zionisats because of its perceived animus to a people.

    As an example; in South Africa the African National Congress is the Liberation Movement of black South Africans and was always a single unit representing a single idea/concept and led to this single entity dominating the political arena and becoming the government of South Africa. This has been the way across Africa.
    No single party ever dominated Zionism and Israel from its inception to now. All Israeli governments have been Zionist irrespective of their politics.

    Because Jews/Zionists do not live in Israel does not diminish their Zionism as you continuously try to assert.
    Many Zionists/Jews reside outside Israel for a multitude of reasons, just as many Africans reside outside Afrtca but are still regarded as Africans.
    To try insinuate that we who live outside Israel are any less believers in Zionism borders on the racist, as you seem to have given yourself both the right and the power to dictate who we are

    As least you did not claim your ‘best friends are Jewish’ as so many of your fellow travellers are wont to do.

    Israeli crimes against Palestinians: a meaningless statement that is so general and vague and filled with overtones of ???? it is almost mendacious. Needs much more in the way of fact, not opinion, point of view and innuendo

    By the way do Palestinians have human rights but Jews/Israelis not.

    And to complicate and muddy the waters further; prior to 1948 all Palestinians who went by that name were Jews as the Arabs insisted on being called Arabs who lives in the Mandate Of Palestine. Arabs only took the Palestinian moniker in the late 1950s’ anward

  29. Chris

    The American Jewish identity is in flux, and has been for some time.

    Although the vast majority of American Jews still claim a modicum of Jewish identity, for many the connection becomes more tenuous on a yearly basis.
    Intermarriage,assimilation, plummeting birth rates and the belief in the new ‘religion’ of human rights has allienated many Jews from their roots and in a generation or two many will not be Jewish anymore.
    This is an ongoing occurence that is as old as the Isralite/Hebrew/Jewish people has existed; and it will always exist.

    As a result I would not put to much stock in American West Coast and New York Jewish opinion as the only source of knowledge on the issue.
    These are the major sectors of Judaism that I predict will wither away into nothingness.

    The exception to the above is Orthodox American Jewery who are growing exponentialy and at current rates will become the majority of Jewish America

  30. Chris

    As I said in an earlier reply, Zionism is much bigger than just a political movement as it encompasses the whole panalopy of Jewish history, philosophy and religion.

    In your narrow minded animus to Jews/Zionism you ignore the fact that we have been exiled and decimated by hatred and violence across most of the globe for nearly two thousand years, and in all that time have always staked our claim to only one place.

    The place of our dreams in all our books, including the Babylonian Talmud, is ERETZ YSRAEL.

    All the national movements you mentioned have been seeking political freedom within recognised boundaries, with no exile and religous and political persecution similar to the Jewish diaspora.

    The Jewish National Liberation Movement is different in that it includes Jews from atound the world who want to replace their theoretical and imaginary freedom and safety at the hands of multitudous others, and place it firmly within our own grasp; to succeed or fail as our own masters in our own historic homeland

    A very inconvenient truth that no doubt you will argue and dispute for the rest of time; but we have finally escaped foreign domination (from people like yourself) and will continue to fight to maintain our freedom

  31. Chris

    Judaism is more than a religion; we are a people whether we want to be or not.

    The antisemites and Jew Haters of the world ensured that we remained seperate and became apeople even if we were origanally only a religion

    I find it very racist to be told by some individual who I am

  32. Leah

    Not only is it our right to define who we are as Zionists; we also have the right to define who we are as Jews

    Its only the racists and Jew haters who try to define who we are; to ensure that we are the outsiders of the people and nations of this world

  33. Chris

    That is one of the most convoluted and unpleasant posts you have made.

    What has the reference of Zionism in the ancient past got to do with today.
    Zionism is not relevannt to the biblical historic period as it played out in the area of its relevance; much as the national movements in other parts of the world you mentioned earlier, are concerned.

    Zionism is a product of international exile and persecution with no physical homeland to live in; the homeland was the Jewish dream of redemption that has sustained us for nearly two thousand years and became a reality in 1948 despite the machinations and actions of millions of anti-Jewish, antisemetic racists around the world

    Chasidics are a manifestation of the diaspora;
    They are a sect of Judaism.
    They are not the only Judaism
    They are not the exclusive Judaism that the Jew haters so hanker after

  34. Dear Chris

    And why can’t you be a fascist and a marxist at the same time.
    There is a difference in the way they want the economy to run.
    But in operational terms they end up emulating each other.
    They are both controlled economies; it’s just that one says the money belongs to everyone while the other says the money goes where the work is (proverbialy).
    Both are police states where human rights are respected in theory , but not practise.
    Both brook no dissent and incarcerate their opponents in concentration camps/gulags.
    Both control the media and practise extreme censorship; they try to control what we think

    The similarities between the two dwarf their differences; differences which to my mind are only superficial.
    So I can imagine you being both whilst protesting your innocence about your approval of systems (both) that are totalitarian and vile

    1. You really are a tool Richard, still if you desire to equate democratic syndicalism & heterodox economics with authoritarianism, please be my guest – it will be a hard sell I assure you!

      Further, whilst Marx was focused on class issues, he certainly was not the first political economist/philosopher to do so, particularly here in the UK.

  35. ….and the results are in.

    Chris has pissed 2.2 metres up the wall and Richard has also pissed 2.2 metres up the wall.

    So that’s 5000 points to Gryffindor.

    Now about those Jewish students being subject to extreme prejudice at a British Uni……..

Leave a Reply