12th Feb 2018, Kings College London (KCL). Former Deputy Prime-Minister Israeli Dan Meridor had been invited to speak on the campus. The event was arranged by The Pinsker Center, KCL Israel Society and City Israel Society. The majority of those attending were Jewish students. Because of increasing intimidation, KCL Israel Society issued a statement to address ‘behind the scenes’ issues related to the event:

Jewish Students at KCL ISOC

Because of the strict security conditions that events such as this require, another message was then posted:

KCl ISOC Jewish students

This isn’t normal student politics. These messages are a sign of students under siege. And not without reason. Over the last few years, several events of this type have been disrupted. There had been violence at this university two years ago. Violence that involved the same groups of demonstrators.

External battles

Everyone was aware that this event would face opposition. Below is a screenshot of the Palestine Solidarity Campaign, advertising a call for opposition to a student event. Promoting a call for opposition well beyond the confines of the KCL campus. Intimidating behaviour directed towards students, from a group riddled with antisemitism.  Incredibly, despite our growing understanding of the antisemitism within the PSC, and this type of intimidating behaviour, Jeremy Corbyn still remains a patron of this organisation.

PSC at KCL

We must also remember that in a few days, these anti-Israel activists on campus, will begin a ‘festival of hate’ directed against Israel. A whole week (or more) of events where they will listen to the lies contained within the polished delegitimisation campaign against Israel. They will have their opportunity to chant all manner of threats against the Israeli state.  ‘Apartheid Week’ is coming:

Apartheid Week at KCL

And yet on the other side of this ‘discussion’ it is very different. The Jewish students are under attack. Some hold their head up with pride, but it is absolutely certain some are intimidated into silence. Just one event of this type results in dozens of groups organising an action that tries to shut the event down. It is advertised by organisations off campus that have high level political support. The demonstrators tend to be highly organised, just as we have previously seen on UCL, another London campus.

The shaming of the Jewish students

The protestors came, they stood outside the room, and they tried to make as much noise as possible, to disrupt the event. They call it ‘free speech’, but it isn’t. It is an attempt to deny free speech.

This from an official statement from the KCL Israel Society

They came onto campus this evening with one aim; to intimidate us and shut down our event. They coordinated their voices to scream throughout the talk, without even a minute to allow us to listen to the speaker in peace. There were reported screams of ‘Khaybar’, the battle cry against Jews, and we left the room to fingers pointed in our faces with the word ‘shame’, repeated over and over again.’

When the students left the room, they faced a barrage of cries of ‘shame shame’

As further signs of the ‘external influence’ involved, it was another non-student, anti-Israel group, ‘Friends of Al-Aqsa’ that live streamed the protest. They also proudly posted a video of this ‘shaming’. Notice the first comment underneath the video.

KCL Cockroaches

It is important to note that this comment is not made towards an Israeli official, or about an Israeli policy. It is being directed towards British Jewish students at Kings College London. British Jewish students are ‘cockroaches’. No doubt in need of another attempt at ‘extermination’.

Demonstrators as victims

It is also interesting to record how the demonstrators twist the events. They had chosen to come onto a campus to disrupt an event. The campus security tried, and partially failed to contain the protest. One demonstrator was not permitted inside because he held a megaphone. An instrument clearly designed (outside a door of an event) to disrupt. This became the tweet of the night:

KCL megaphone

So as Jewish students are huddled in a room, struggling to hear what their invited speaker against a background of vocal hate, the demonstrators portray themselves as the victims. In the footage, the security man explicitly references the megaphone (see under his arm).  The person tweeting this is Ayo Olatunji, who is part of the UCL student union, and was part of the UCL protest and disruption in late 2016. More of a concern was this tweet by Ayo:

He claims he was denied, not because of his behaviour, his intent, or the need to uphold free speech, but because he is black. I saw this weaponisation of racism at Cambridge with Malia Bouattia, and recently being used at Warwick by Nicola Pratt. A truly divisive strategy. There is of course nothing about his colour mentioned in the footage.

The protestors have complained to the university. They are in ‘outrage’. Why? Just as I described their dissatisfaction at events at UCL two week ago:

What of the Jewish students?

This is all intimidation. And it works. The university is not capable of fighting a war for the Jewish students, because this is not a battle of students. Palestine Solidarity Campaign advertise it, Friends of Al Aqsa live stream it, off-campus ringleaders turn up to assist in the organisation.

How many of those Jewish students who may have been intimidated by yesterday’s events, will not attend another meeting of its type? Will supporters of those Jewish students now look over their shoulder and say to themselves ‘it is not worth it’? How many of those who organised the event, will not organise another? Will invited speakers not want to come?

Intimidation works because it works through intimidation, not debate. Non-democratic forces are undermining our academic spaces. Values of equality, democracy, free speech are all under threat. When you have Jewish students forced to leave a room surrounded by haters screaming ‘shame’, alongside posts on Facebook calling these students ‘cockroaches’, then you have to accept you are in dangerous territory.

 ———————————————–

Help support my research

I fight antisemitism and the revisionist narrative that demonises Israel. I was recently named as one of the J100 (‘top 100 people positively influencing Jewish life’) by The Algemeiner. My work is fully independent, and your support makes much of what I do possible. This research can and does make a difference.

If you can, please consider making a donation. Either a single amount or a small monthly contribution.  Research such as this is intensive. We need to be there to expose the hatred and the lies. We have to shine a light into the shadows and show people what is happening. Every contribution is greatly appreciated.

Keep up to date, subscribe to the blog by using the link on the page. Follow the FB page for this blog: and follow me on Twitter.

 

Facebooktwittergoogle_plusredditpinterestlinkedintumblrmail

282 thoughts on “KCL – will someone please protect the Jewish students?

    1. That’s a fascinating take on things Stephen. How have you come to this conclusion given the article you linked to.

        1. I was at the funeral. Jason’s suicide is a tragedy. On a personal level, I exchanged several messages with him between September and December. I met Jonathan at the funeral. My advice to Jonathan in recent days was over timing, not content. There are things said in the blog that I believe were worthy of report. There are many things not yet mentioned worthy too, but as I said, my opinion over timing, differed from Jonathan’s. I currently won’t say any more than to offer Jason’s family my sincere condolences and wish them a long life.

          1. ” I currently won’t say any more than to offer Jason’s family my sincere condolences and wish them a long life.”

            Yes David, but you are are not a hopeless narcissist with zero impulse control

            Reply

            1. Bellamy, by the looks of things the only narcissist is you. This isn’t a game! This is a public forum and you are making a fool of yourself!

            2. The jew-baiter projects his own inadequacies and psychological hangups onto others.

              1. Manchester video? Did I miss it. (as for the rest, It is a truly disgraceful blog. Whether Tony likes it or not, just several weeks before the suicide, Tony did link to Jason’s place of work, and the complaints that were made to the professional body, where probably made on the basis of this. There is quite a lot of criticism being aimed at Tony from within his own camp. Despite this as before, my only real comments are to offer the family condolences and wish them long life.)

        2. In other words you’re talking sh*t and can’t back up anything you say. Nothing new there, jew-baiter.

      1. Leah27z,

        God, they teach you Zionists some manners. Mind you, such language betrays who you are, which ain’t a decent person by a long stretch.

          1. Norm,

            Given Zionists are a mixed bag, i.e., many are not even Jewish, its difficult for you to cast your usual line of attack. Still, with Posters like Leah and Edward, you chaps don’t need enemies with friends like that.

        1. Chris

          ‘you Zionists’

          A mindless comment that does you no credit

          Maybe you could be a bit more descriptive with your words to explain what you mean those specific words

          1. Leah and Edward, by their very pronouncements are Zionists. Do you dispute this fact. Further, the language they abuse does bugger all to ‘Bridge any Divides’. You may like sticking up for those who support extreme Rightwing UK political parties, but I certainly do not. The language they utilise is that of racists and they are Zionists, so, sorry, but facts are facts.

            1. Oh please get off your high horse. Some of the posters here are frustrated, that people like you are given a free reign to distort, deflect and lie from what is diligent and intensive research. I get their frustrations. They think I am wrong for allowing you to post here and have frequently told me my strategy demeans the work.

              I don’t agree with the way they ‘bite’ when you bait, and I would rather they didn’t, but I cannot do anything about it. I wanted to, and continue to want to leave the comment section open so as to permit proper and real debate should it open up. But let’s not for one second pretend that you and your ‘ilk’ have some type of moral high ground here – because you don’t. You’re worthlessness is tolerated, and that is about as far as it goes.

              1. From the above text as written by yourself David: “The protestors came, they stood outside the room, and they tried to make as much noise as possible, to disrupt the event. They call it ‘free speech’, but it isn’t. It is an attempt to deny free speech.”

                Now, who does this remind me of, that other person whom you knock around with? Whats his name again. Oh I remember, Jonathan (Scoffie) Hoffman.

                Who will protect us from Hoffman?

                1. you are engaging in whataboutery, and having seen many events with Jonathan present, you clearly don’t know what you are talking about. Is this the ‘exception’ ‘rule’ game being played again?

              2. David, I’ve just started reading your blog and the comments section and am seriously confused by the mentality of the people trolling your site. I just don’t get it – are they anti Zionist Jews or just Jew baiters? Why are they devoting so much time to issues that don’t concern them if they have no investment in the future of Jewish life in Britain? Don’t they realise that for Jews like myself, with children, that the anti Semitism on display in your research is a real and present danger and not the product of paranoia? It certainly isn’t a subject for snide and worthless commentary, grandstanding or sarcasm. Who are these people who nitpick through your research and focus on irrelevant digressions to distract from the real points you are making? I don’t care about finessing distinctions between Zionism/Judaism or any other ism, not now in 2018 when British Jews are afraid to even reveal their Jewish identity for fear of reprisal as my own children are at University. What sort of people are bothering to comment on your blog, over and over again, appearing to get off on riling you and other concerned voices about an issue that I suspect is entirely theoretical for themselves and their loved ones? I’m asking because I just don’t understand why, on this of all sites, people can’t show a little decency and respect. Thank you for your work. I’m proud to be Jewish, but I fear for what the future will hold for my family should this onslaught of anti Semitism in all of its new incarnations be allowed to flourish unchallenged. I understand that you are allowing freedom of debate by engaging with all contributors, but I would urge those who are determined to diminish your research to consider why they feel the need to post on this blog at all. It’s a serious issue for some of us, please stop trying to make a mockery of it. Shalom.

                1. Thank you Barbara. Astonishing isn’t it. Some people do not understand why I permit them to post. I think it is important, precisely because of what you describe. In response to my report – look at what comes out of the woodwork. As Ian, a valuable and important commentator here often points out – this acts as a valuable historical record. Their responses almost (not quite) as important as the research I share.

            2. Chris, you ignorant Socialist,

              You have your panties in a knot over “Rightwing” parties, but when it comes to REAL “Righwing” parties, those with a Koranic slant, which hang gays, impose dress codes on women, stone women to death, cut hands off people accused of theft, establish No-Go Zones for people who don’t obey the tenets of Mohammed, you are oddly silent.

              Why your massive blindspot, comrade?

              May your Nakba continue unabated.

              1. Sounds a lot like Saudi Arabia to me Edward. Guess what, Israel & SA seem to be quite good friends – obviously I detest SA, particularly the ethnic cleansing its undertaking in Yemen, supported by the same Western colonialist powers that support Israel.

                1. Oh yes, Saudi Arabia, the only Islamist entity socialists are willing to slam. Something to do with SA’s support by the US.

                  Ultra-Conservative Ultra-Right Wing Islamist entities (hezbola, hamass, fascist iran) which execute gays, stone women to death, enforce dress codes (beards for men, masks for women) are dealt with with hearts and flowers.

                  If SA hated the US like Fascist Iran, you’d be on your knees to the King of SA.

                  You ain’t foolin’ anyone, comrade.

                  Happy Nakba!

                  1. I’ve had some good times with Iranian workers in Dubai Leah, although they can drink me under the table. That said, none of them struck me as either religious, or, supportive of the Mullah’s in Iran – good working class folk. Oh, and none ever mentioned Israel or expressed any genocidal tendencies, unlike some of your Peers here, who believe ethnic cleansing is wonderful. I don’t!

            3. I don’t “support extreme Rightwing UK political parties”, Slimeball. And I have not used any ‘racist’ language.
              Your sick and sickening hatred is clear for everyone to see every time you pour abuse on the concept of Jewish self-determination in the Jewish homeland (you know, Zionism).

    2. Stephen

      Is Jonathan trying to prevent others from voicing their views

      Have not watched your clip because of time constraints

      The protestors at KCL remind me of pictures of German and Austrian civilians abusing Jews and/or encouraging others to do the same as part of an organised anti-Jew festival

      They have replaced the word Jew for the words Zionist and/or Israeli and relying on peoples ignorance of the facts, hope that they will increase the ranks of the Jew haters

      The ‘lefty liberal neo-fascist and Islamist coalition’ of Jew haters have changed words to suit their new methods, but they all still look remarkably like the early years of Nazi rule in Germany.

      The killing of the Jews had not begun when this behaviour became common in the mid to late 1930s’ , but the demeaning and demonisation of Jews into a sub-species (like cockroaches) that were sub-human and needed to be seperated from society so that they could be controlled were the necessary ingredients that eventually made the Holocaust possible

      Wondering how our own dear little Mike will try seek to justify and excuse this blatant anti-Jewish sentiment and intolerance that seems to have become such a staple on our wonderfully ‘unenlightened’ campuses today

  1. What a disgraceful demonstration by the PSC (and associated Rent-a-Mobs). What happened to thought, to nuanced argument, to reasoned debate? What happened to listening? To INTELLIGENCE? Depressing indeed.

      1. Stephen

        Please take into account that we have never shut down a meeting.

        We have only ever disrupted Q & A when it has become obvious that we are being ignored, and/or they are trying to prevent a question being asked by the meeting chair interupting and attempting to shorten the question while allowing their favoured narrative unlimited amplification

        1. Actually engaging bellend the jew-baiter is a waste of time and energy. Further, given that he is a jew-baiter first and foremost, he doesn’t deserve it, nor are his comments worthy of rebuttal. Just scorn.

  2. The situation in those Universities that allow antiIsrael/ antiSemitic intimidation on campus is particularly worrying. I wish I had an answer. But the sight of young people in a University being attacked because they want to educate themselves about what is happening in Israel is horrific, and this is no accident – the protests are designed to be as horrific as possible.

  3. The power of muscle memory! David highlights prejudice in a British Uni and the very first response is an instinctive panic reaction designed to quickly deflect from the point and perpetuate a peevish personal grudge. Classy move Bellers.

    1. Oh Ian if you think I get in a panic over David’s stuff, you doubtless think there are fairies at the bottom of your garden. And I don’t do personal grudges. You are out of your depth. You don’t have the remotest fucking clue what is going on. Does he David ?

                  1. Well i will admit that my face is not as well known and notorious for its racist far right associations as yours Harv.

                    ” Today I have done badly, tomorrow I will do better”

                    Antoine St Just, l’enfant terrible de la revolution

        1. Stephen

          A lot of people knew about Newmark, but as with all things in this vein, everyone is waiting for someone else to put their heads above the parapet to allow the flood gates to open

          Looking at the disaray in the ‘oh so saintly’ NGO market in the UK at the moment’
          the JLC imbroglio is small beer

          Waiting for this NGO situation to expand and implode as the ‘holier than thou do-gooders’ have their faces and hands dirtied by the serial allegations of impropriety and mendacious behaviour that are swirling around

          At least in Israel they investigate and prosecute these types of actions, unlike the rest of the world that goes into denial and tries to sweep the whole bussiness under the carpet

          1. You think Bibi is going to be prosecuted Richard ?

            As for Newmark it has been well known that he is as bent as a wad of £9 notes for a long time. I am going to write it up early next week. I have some pressing cat issues to keep me busy til then.

            Newmark is a one man crime wave.

            1. Richard as for everyone waited for someone to put their heads above the parapet…..

              Then someone did. Who ?

              Well here is some clues.

              Who had access ? ( to the audit )

              Who had the relevant grudges ? ( motive)

              Who is without any semblance of moral compass ?

              For whom was the timing right ?

            2. not sure about Bibi. There are complaints from within the prosecutors office that the police have blown the balloon up larger than it is. The question is not whether the attacks on him are politically motivated or not – they clearly are – the question is whether because of this, they have put together enough threads to carry out a prosecution.

              Newmark – no comment.

      1. I love it when posts here start with “Oh…” or “Tut, tut”. Against the backdrop of some really offensive exchanges it’s so twee. Spot on though Bellers I have no idea what’s going on inside your little activist ecosystem. Though if I’m honest, for someone that has used almost every thread to snipe at some specific bete noir and has a rogues gallery with piccies on his own blog the “I don’t do personal grudges” remark sounds like a right load of old bollox. Anyway mustn’t dawdle. I’ve got the fairies planting out the hummus trees this morning.

          1. I’m now going to have to add your one liners to the personal grudges, name-dropping of persons unknown and obscure acronyms to the things that I “don’t have the remotest fucking clue” about. Just to go off topic what do you think about prejudice in British universities?

              1. Stephen

                Ian asked you a very relevant and important question, which you then very rudely brushed off as unimportant and of no interestet to you.

                This entire thread, and much of Davids’ work relates to Universities and the blatant way in which a small, but very vocal minority of students and staff, openly display extremely anti-Jewish tropes that harken back to a period in our not to distant past

                Criticism of Israel is all very well; but the performances of the various anti-Israel groups on campus perform well outside legitimate criticism and venture into the well documented realms of blatant Jew hatred

                University administrations are fearfull of involvement for fear of being branded ‘racist’ or some other form of insult; and knowing that the blowback for ignoring Jewish grievances is minimal, they just ignore the sensibilities and fears of Jews

                Please do grace these pages with a more informative discusion than your contribution to date on this important subject

              2. So does that make any of it okay? Seems that its not cool to be prejudicial towards a black guy, a gay person, a disabled child or a transsexual but rag on a Jew and it’s a “Meh” and a shrug of the shoulders…..oh and then take the piss out of David or call him a liar for pointing it out. You guys !!

  4. Reciprocal action is an absolute necessity. Protest their meetings and speakers like for like .
    Unfortunately Jewish students appear to believe they are playing from a level playing field vis a vis the campus administration , Chancellors , Trustees etc . They are not . Only a large non violent opposing protest will cause sufficient embarrassment, that the university in question will sit up and take notice. These are public events and the public has a right to attend . Cordon off the meetings with a no pasaran line so that these neo fascists and their handlers are unable to get close enough to disrupt and no platform .

    1. Look, as Bellers quite rightly points out above I “don’t have the remotest fucking clue” about UK activism on either side so tell me, what does “reciprocal action” look like? Loads of Jewish kids in duffel coats shouting the odds as a load of other kids in duffel coats, led by a few obvious non-kids with megaphones ranting on about how they hate Arabs, that Arabs are genocidal and illegal occupiers. What is the imagined endgame of this strategy?

          1. Ian
            Are you saying it’s ok that Jewish students should have to endure open season on them . If the university ignores the actions of the proto fascists who intimidate Jew and non Jew wishing to attend a public debate, what other suggestions do you have in mind ?

      1. Endgame sufficient to cause university authorities to clamp down on protests designed to disrupt outside debating halls . There needs to be a 50 metre cordon around the room . Protest is fine but not disruption but as long as it’s on the bds agenda it needs to be reciprocated.

  5. Harvey, firstly please do not mistake my question for some sort of unseemly attack. I was merely trying to understand how you envisaged your strategy unfolding. In the world of like for like action I can only see a scene in which two rival groups stand a measured distant apart shouting at each other. Then David can then write his stuff about antisemitism and Opposite David can write his stuff about antiArabism or whatever and both sides cancel each other out in the noise. It’s a plan but I’m sure that human ingenuity can construct something more worthwhile.

    1. Well, if you are so smart, Ian, YOU ‘construct something more worthwhile’. In the meantime the Jewish community will look for ways to oppose left wing, and right wing, fascism wherever it can.

  6. Stephen

    If he is prosecuted in open court and found not guilty, he can rebuild his career

    If he is not prosecuted I think he will be faulty goods and his career is over

    I think the dye is cast and there will be a prosecution

    The verdict; I won’t venture a guess

  7. The prosecutors rather like contributors here have built a case against Bibi on whataboutery. We can’t get him on the subs so what about the cigars? Thinking about it there are many similarities to the tactics used here. There is a heavy reliance on attritional pursuit, demeaning accusations and the guilt by alleged association. There is a transparency to the assault from political rivals who have allowed their frustration of perpetual opposition to drive them to the witness stand. Some like Lapid have been rumbled for their ill intent . Others like Bennett are waiting to see who’s still standing when the music stops. All the time Bibi’s popularity with the electorate grows and in all likelihood he would win an election if it was held tomorrow. Even for his detractors he represents stability and the safest pair of hands for the times ahead. Personally I am not a fan but at present he remains free, more than capable of leading the next coalition and probably will.

  8. Ian Kay, going off topic is simply playing the anti-Zionist’s game. David has made it clear on several occasions that he wishes us to stay on topic. I think we should respect that.

  9. Norm, I agree that we should stay on topic so let’s focus on the matter at hand. Occurrences like the one reported above are not going to go away because one group gets more megaphones than the other one, nor proves to be more disruptive at public or private meetings. The real instigators, the people that use the traditional groups like students as the Forlorn Hope have far too much invested to be deterred from their purpose by angry Jews. In microcosm do you think opponents will stop posting their bollox here just because the one side keep saying “Nazi” whilst the other says “Zio” ? Would you?

    Truthfully, it astonishes me that we didn’t put this debate to bed decades ago when the Arabs and their supporters invented the Palestinians and their fantasist aspirations and began their orchestrated and sustained propaganda campaign whilst blowing up planes, shuls and buses to punctuate their demands. Idiots like Mike and others that post here are just the fall out that blindly bought into the nonsense. If you’re a Jew hater to start with, it isn’t a big step. Our unwillingness over the years to take this noise seriously and mount the obvious rebuttal didn’t help. With the hardcore antisemites, it never would.

    Luckily we have time on our side. We will play the long game because we can. We have a happy population, a strong and growing economy, the IDF securing our borders and a great big toy box in a sand pit down Dimona way that keeps all of our enemies pretty focused. For now we need to spend our time redressing the propaganda imbalance and work cohesively to ensure that more national and local governments outlaw BDS, more international banks close their accounts, more media companies refuse to place their ads and more businesses continue to disassociate with them, exposing them for the racists and antisemites that they are. Work towards their eradication and other dominoes will soon start to fall

    I’m not smart Norm. Yesterday I was accused of “not having a fucking clue what’s going on” and I couldn’t agree more. You’re strategy may be far more impactful than anything I could suggest and give Jewish communities a real sense that they are on the barricades together and actually doing something. I know that in the diaspora this has value. Good luck with the good fight but choose your enemies carefully. Aiming your fire at people like me is missing the target by miles.

    1. I disagree. It is vital to confront the antisemites in public. One reason they have grown stronger and bolder in their public displays – which spill over into all areas of public life – is the weakness of Jewish leadership, who prefer to be galuti and bend the knee and tug the forelock,

  10. Chris

    Of course they are Zionists; no one is disputing that fact.

    The issue is your flippant use of the phrase ‘you Zionists’.

    That is a collective slur on each and every person who is a Zionist because you disagree with the way someone has said something.

    The next step to logically follow on from that is the typical comment ‘you Jews ,sorry I meant Zionists, are all money grubbing bloodsuckers’.

    You may not have meant what you said in the context of my example, but these types of generalised ad hominem remarks have the amazing ability to transmogrify into something else, as history has shown us time and again.

    The casual throw away phrase that develops its own life, far removed from its original intent.

    Categorising and bracketing people into groups can have some very unpleasant effects and lead into name calling and racism.

    Please choose your use of words with more care.

  11. Stephen

    Its not a matter of who stuck their head above the parapet; rather who found the couirage to be the first to do it.

    Go to any lecture or meeting and wait for Q & A; a general reluctance to put the first question, and after the first question is asked, everyone finds their voice and is able to talk.

    1. Oh my meeting days are long gone Richard. I just want to sit on a bench over looking Roaring Water Bay watching the whales and thinking about referring expressions. But Zio guys and gals keep bugging me

  12. Chris

    In all the meetings I have been to where Jonathan was present, I never heard or saw him attempt to stop a meeting like the anti-Israel brigade do at every opportunity.

    I have seen Jonathan get vocal during Q & A when he tries to ask a question and is intentionally and purposefully ignored by the meeting chair.

    What is even more abhorrent is when the chair realises that it is a pro-Israel person asking the question, the chair either tries to prevent the question being asked, or attempts to curtail the length of the question, trying to make the question as unintelligble as possible, thereby rendering the question meaningless.

    I have seen these action innumerable times and besides being frustrating, are downright unpleasantly rude

  13. Chris

    You made a lot of allegations about Saudi Arabia in Yemen, but offered no facts and information other than what appears to be your opinion and point of view.

    I am totally confused by the goings on in Yemen; maybe you could try clarify the position for me.

    I don’t know who is fighting whom, and for what.

    And as for the Saudis being accused of ethnic cleansing, I have read nothing on that nor heard it on radio and tv.

    So if you could let me know where I can find that info , I would be grateful

  14. Chris

    A am a little confused about you saying that some posters are supporters of ethnic cleansing.

    To the best of my knowledge I have not seen anything vaguely like that, so if you could tell me who they are, and show me their posts, I will join you in condemning them.

    If you cannot do this then I can only assune that you are hurling accusations lacking any foundation in truth

  15. Dick

    Not quite sure how your comment about the ‘black skinned person who must get out of someones country’

    Could you fill me in so I can understand the context and the relavence it has to this blog

    Thanks

  16. Stephen

    If you don’t mind me saying, you seem to be a willing and sometimes enthusiastic participant in this blog.

    Nothing I would like better than sitting on a nigh mountain after a long hike, but life is vast, and meetings and blogs are part of it all

    By the way I’m still waiting on your explanation about your calling Israel
    1) a basketcase
    2) the most dependant country in the world on foreign aid and assistance

    You are not a fool so please do me the courtesy by at least attempting an explanation

  17. Someone above said that “it is vital to confront antisemites in public”. Certainly true but to what end? It is too easy to make bold remarks in the abstract, full of keyboard hubris and zero substance. But when all of the students and their puppet-masters have gone home what is left other than another report by David, some social media soundbites littered with mutual abuse and about 10 minutes of faint self gratification before the rage returns? It all seems so Groundhog Day. By now both sides know what they are going to face over and over and yet seem content to bring the same fight. No problem for the rank and file confrontationalist; Turn up, chant slogans, take photos with phone, chant more slogans, write blog, have biscuits. But to a relatively disinterested world outside this tiny ecosystem it just looks a bit…meh.

    I remember walking through Manchester in 2014 at the height of some protest about a shop selling Israeli stuff and walked past a big group of Israeli flag wavers with megaphones shouting at a big group of opponents with megaphones who shouted back. As I walked up the road beyond them a couple of staff from one of the shops were having a fag break outside and one asked the other what was going on. “Something to do with the World Cup I think.” came the reply.

    So if the name of the game is simply to tick box entitled ‘Confrontation’ then its mission accomplished. If you want to achieve something worthwhile the maybe think again.

    Perhaps a start would be to stop parading an endless stream of embassy folk, hard done by Jewish victims of terror, holocaust survivors and sympathetic scholars. Instead take the deceitful use of language like apartheid by BDS firmly by the bollox and take a stall at their next roadshow. Invite speakers like Salim Joubran, Israeli Supreme Court Judge and an Arab; maybe Alaa Waheeb, the most senior Israeli Arab Muslim officer in the IDF or perhaps Prof. Ahmed Eid, Head of surgery at Hadassah Hospital and an Israeli Arab. Let their voices be heard and let little Jocasta and her SOAS chums in their Ronit Zilkha kefiyahs and box fresh floral Doc Martins scream apartheid at them. Even Polly Toynbee would have to put a double shift in to spin that one.

    Of course, as contributors on both sides have rightly pointed out, I know fuck all.

  18. Off topic but could not resist to mention that Greenstein’s hearing into his alleged antisemitism begins on Sunday in Brighton . He’s sickeningly compared himself to Dreyfus in his opening J’accuse in which case I hope Sussex Friends of Israel maintain the French theme and show up with their knitting needles and knit him a straitjacket. No doubt he will get off with a slap on the wrist and a recommendation to take a course in antisemitism ( pot , black etc ) which he will refuse. The other outcome is that he will bore the panel to sleep in which case there will be a further adjournment.

  19. Chris

    That is one statement; I get the impression from the way you worded your statement that you think this it is a prevalent thought on this blog

    I don’t agree with stupid racist statements, even if they are taken verbatin from the anti-Israel and anti-Jewish Palestinian songbook, from the mouths of your Palestinian friends.

    Whereas I believe that the Palestinian claim for a country from the river to the sea with a small minority Jewish population is their intended aim and one the vast majority of Palestinians are working for, the same desire among Jews is in the extreme minority and opposed by the majority of Jews.

    I dislike racism and I dislike people who accuse me of asking questions with ill will as you have done. I asked a perfectly civil question and received an unpleasant nasty remark from you in return. Are you incapable of holding a civil discussion without adding specious unnecesary commentary. There have been a number of nasty comments directed at you, but you seem to be deserving of them, because your commentary is of the same standard

    Your entire argument/accusation against ‘you Zionists’ must be a little larger than a single comment that as I say is taken directly from your ‘non violent friendly’ stone throwing and generally Jew hating Palestinian friends; if you hope to condemn the majority of Jews with this asinine comment you need to do a lot better

  20. Chris

    Offering the sub-standard words of the Independant as proof of an argument is stupid; the newspaper may once have been relevant but by its inability to serve as a reliable news outlet, ended up consigning it to the nether world of tabloid type news on the internet.

    If I wanted to spend endless hours trawling the internet for information, I would have done it; but you made a claim that I have not seen or heard before and I was requesting that in the hope that you could supply a source of factual information saving me the time of having to spend hours sifting fake news fews for the truth.

    Refering to the United Nations for information is also one those suggestions like above; the UN has proven time and again that most of its resolutions and actions are driven by political concerns that strive for consensual acceptance by the majority. Very little that the UN produces ever seems to go beyond useless rhetoric that seldom relates to the reality on the ground. The Security Council is curtailed by the Chinese, Russian and US veto, so seldom allows much to progress.

    So when I asked for information ,I was assuming that as you claim a university education, thay you would be able to supply a little more than mundane links to dubious facts.

    Do try a little harder

  21. Chris

    Incidently, death tolls, structural damage, refugees, famine and much more is the staple of every war, on every continent, involving all nations involved in fighting, through the entire course of world history. It is the nature of war, unpleasant as that reality is

  22. Stephen

    The use of term ‘you Zionists’ was used as derogatory put down against what has become the aspiration of the majority of the Jewish people.

    The imagery that your use of the term conveys is one that is understood to mean a particular mindset that represents views on wellfare, politics, trade unions and more; it does not refer to a particular group defined by ethnicity, colour and religion

    The Conservative Party is a political organisation that covers many different groups.

    Zionism is recognised by most as a specifically Jewish endeavour, so sometimes when phrases and terms are directed at Zionists there may be an ill-concealed animus against Jews inherent in that term.

    Not all negative commentary is anti-Jewish; just that which seeks to replace the anti-Jewish terminology of hate by the use of terminology that tries to disguise that hatred by using different words and phrases

    Therein lies the difference

    1. Richard,

      Please don’t utilise the well played trope that attacking a political movement is in anyway racist. Let us be blunt, 40% of the UK electorate polled in the past 6 months state clearly they’ll vote Tory, does that mean that 40% represents myself? Certainly not!

      Now, when I’m here I’m discussing posters on this Blog, the majority of whom are Zionists – as I don’t support the Zionist movement, which is a political movement composed of both Jews and non-Jews, and with regards most posters being ardent Zionists here, the use of the term ‘you Zionists’ cannot be construed as an attack of the Jewish community at large globally, most of which does not reside in Israel. Indeed, and as you are aware, many within the Jewish community object to Zionism and its political belief that it speaks for all Jews. I’t does not, the same applies with the Tories, they do not speak for me, nor do they represent my values.

      Now, and given I associate with only about a dozen folk who are Jewish, none of them reside in Israel, none are Zionists in the political sense, and less than a handful offer support for Israel – the Jewish folk I know are British, Canadian & American’s and not all are on the Left.

      Now, I don’t accuse my Jewish peers of contributing to Israeli crimes with regards Palestine, based on the fact they are not Israeli’s, nor can I accuse a majority of my Jewish peers being Zionists, which they are not. As far as my British Jewish peers are concerned they are British, and most, like me detest the Tories. And like me, the majority are critical of Israel.

      Now, I’m a political animal, don’t have much time for Religion, nor too much time for extreme forms of nationalism. I’m keen on human rights and combating racism. Alas, quite a few posters here are ardent racists, which I’m certainly not.

      Now, go utilise your tropes on someone else, perhaps those racists that support Israel, but object to Jewish folk living among them – which to me is anathema.

      1. It isn’t 1925, and Zionism isn’t just a political movement. It is like suggesting that people talking about killing a child is an argument over contraception

        1. Really Richard, in the UK we have Nationalist movements, be they Plaid Cymru, the SNP or Sinn Fein, that these are both nationals and political organisations cannot be disputed. I’m afraid the same applies to Zionism, which was a late nineteenth century nationalist grouping with a desire for a national home to be founded by political means or violence. Now, both Plaid Cymru and the SNP disavow violence, whilst Sinn Fein did not until the Good Friday Agreement. Please pull the other one. As for your comment on the Poll I’ve attached, a Poll conducted in San Francisco by Jewish bodies, the survey speaks for itself. End of!

    2. Richard,

      You claim Zionism is the aspiration of the majority of the Global Jewish Community, or is that Israel as a little confused by your wording, however, funny how in California, specially the San Francisco Bay Area the evidence of respondents to a Community Poll does not compute with your claims, I’m sure Jonathan Hoffman and Mr Collier will have something to say about this, but, facts are facts – may I suggest you start reading from Page 50 onwards: https://jewishfed.org/sites/default/files/Bay%20Area%20Portrait_2.8.2018%20without%20hidden%20slides%20%5BFINAL%5D%20Website%20version.pdf

      1. lol, I always enjoy it when someone who attacks my research, pulls up a survey such as this, and from atop a mountain of ignorance and hate, screams the words ‘facts are facts’. There is little sillier than people who don’t understand Judaism, what it means to be Jewish, or Zionism, analysing a survey about it all, and then placing more stones on top of their mountain.

        1. David, give it a rest, Judaism is a Religion, one of the three Abrahamic traditions, whilst Zionism was pushed by secular Jewish nationalists at first. So, can you please define what Zion you speak of first, and then focus on the historical record of modern Zionism, which has its origins in Nineteenth Century European Nationalism – See Greece, see Hungary, see Germany, see Italy.

          1. There is a healthy straw man you have created. Chris can you give me a single reason why I should engage with good faith, someone who clearly doesn’t understand Jews, is blatantly obsessed with talking about their religion and ideology, and from a position of clouded bias, undoubtedly seeks to destruct their central pillars of identity.

            You keep spouting absolute nonsense…. Judaism is a religion… bla bla bla…. Secular Jews… bla bla bla.. Hang on…. if Judaism is a religion, then what on earth is a secular Jew…

            1. David,

              There are three Abrahamic traditions or religions, or so its states in most Dictionaries – I rely on Collins & the OED. Personally, I was raised in a Christian environment (Methodist), but have no religious affinity, namely I’m secular. I also hold a British Passport, a political construct, that makes me British, as British in fact as any Jewish person, that is a person raised within the Jewish faith, who is also British. As for ethnic origins I have zero idea of mine, although Saxon & Celt heritage seem apparent by both family surnames, I’ve yet to take a DNA test to determine what region I evolved from, although, I’m happy to subscribe to the Eve Theory, namely, I’m out of Africa. Indeed, I may even have Neanderthal DNA in my DNA, which by the way lived in the Holy Lands, I have no claims on the Holy Lands though!!!!

              1. well that was a long way around to arrive at completely avoiding the question.

                You said you were born Christian, but because you have no religious affinity you are now secular. I agree – if you say you are secular and have no religious affinity, you are not a Christian. So can you answer the question raised by your last post. If Judaism, like Christianity is a religion, then what is a ‘secular Jew’ (the term you used)? Or at the extreme – why do people who are self-identifying as Marxists, who do not believe in god at all, who are totally opposed to Israel, still suggest they are Jewish?

                1. David, You are quite risible and your argument full of many holes. So, the UK predominantly is a Christian nation, that’s one with a large amount of Christian baggage. Alas, most in the UK now, although raised in a Christian environment are secular – as children parents used to send kids to Church or Chapel. Not so today – check out CofE & CofW attendance rates to qualify this fact. Now, I have a choice, all others have a choice and we exercise that choice – its called FREEDOM.

                  As for you other BS, I’m afraid to say I prefer democratic syndicalism to Marxism and for my socioeconomic edification prefer Veblen to Marx/Engels. As for economics, I’m in the Heterodox School of Thought.

                  So, what are you? An Israeli fascist no doubt, or at least, a crazed Zionist.

                  1. nope, still not dealing with it Chris. All this running from a simple question. Aren’t you tired? I don’t care what type of nation the UK is, the people inside are free to choose. None of that deflection deals with the issue at all.

                    You are NOT A CHRISTIAN because you are secular. How you were brought up is irrelevant because Christianity is a religion and you chose to reject it.

                    What is a secular Jew?

                    1. David,

                      If you are raised within a household that practices Judaism and then reject that religion/culture, you either convert to another Religion, or become secular, its that simple. Further, given the UK has had waves of human immigration over multiple centuries, most have assimilated with each other. This of course is an on going process. You may deny that Jewish folk are 100% British, I don’t, particularly given many have DNA specific to the Holy Lands, which was settled by our ancestors out of Africa. Now, please don’t deny the DNA record, which suggests we are mostly the same, which is why we breed with each other – if we were genetically different, interbreeding would be impossible. Again, I find your views racist I’m afraid, which is why I oppose extreme forms of nationalism. I’m favourable to economic nationalism, which is quite the opposite to what you seem to support. End of David.

                    2. indeed like nailing jelly to a wall. This constant deflection over Britain and DNA is avoiding the question. Let us try again: You just said.

                      “If you are raised within a household that practices Judaism and then reject that religion/culture, you either convert to another Religion, or become secular, its that simple.”

                      If you replace the word Judaism with Christianity, it works because you are no longer Christian, you are secular. ‘Secular Christian’ is a contradiction in terms. Yes, in Christianity, it really is that simple.

                      But YOU used the term ‘secular Jew’ because it is not a contradiction in terms. Even people without a single religious strand or without religious upbringing or belief define as Jewish. Many Jews consider themselves varying shades of ‘secular’ If Judaism is just a religion, how can something that is a contradiction in terms in Christianity, form a major part of Jewish life?

                      Please do try and answer at some point.

                    3. Have you tried nailing jelly to the wall?
                      Ian is right that Jew-baiters think they can define Zionism. But they also think they can define ‘Jewish’.

                    4. David,

                      Ever heard of CULTURE & Environment, Culture is the environment you are raised in, namely that of your family and community. Of course, the actual environment itself also plays a part in human evolution. No doubt Zionists stopped evolving in Biblical time’s, which is strange given the appearance of Hasidic Jews is closely related to their culture and respect for that culture, much like the Anabaptists in the USA and dates back a few hundred years. Again, its seems racial issues are important to you, alas, I don’t do race as we are all humans and i certainly don’t urinate on a persons culture, which is rude. I’ll stick to being working class, secular and inclusive of all, not ‘exclusive’ like you and your chums here.

                    5. It is okay Chris, I gave up expecting you to answer the question long ago. You painted yourself into a corner, everyone can see that, and I thought I’d let you squeal for a while. I am letting you go now.

            1. Leah, it may annoy you, but humans have an ability to sleep around quite a bit, that is, we are mostly mongrels, namely the by products of DNA liaisons. I like being a mongrel and don’t give a fuck about ethnicity, this based on the fact that the human gene pool is limited in size, so the further one casts the net, the healthier our offspring are, namely, a deeper gene pool means less genetic defects. I’ll leave eugenics to the eugenicists, which has been highly discredited. I’ll also leave extreme nationalism to the extremists, such as those who run Israel, or like yourself, are Zionists with scant regards for others whom you determine are outsiders.

              1. When Muslims (Sunni v Shiite v Wahabbi v Salifi v Sufi v Klingon) can’t get along with fellow Muslims, it’s no surprise that Muslims can’t get along with Infidels.

  23. There is a lovely irony here that can’t have been missed. David writes an article indicating a hostility to Jews in British Universities and contributors respond by berating Jews for wanting to be in control of their own futures. Some neat sidebars as well; gentiles giving lessons to Jews on what Zionism ought to mean to them, statistical analysis of global Jewish demography and of course precedents from some of their best friends who naturally are Jews. Luckily the Zionist dream came to fruition and the Jewish State thrives and grows. Horribly inconvenient for the haters but quite excellent for my children and the generations of my family that will follow them.

    1. Indeed, Ian. It’s we who decide what Zionism means, not the Jew-baiters.
      Not just inconvenient: it send them into paroxysms of impotent rage.

      1. Well Leah, such matters in a liberal society are usually up to the individual, unless of course your follow Jonathan Hoffman’s criteria, which it seems you do. If a person desires to term themselves Jewish why not. Of course Zionists & the Israeli state allegedly speak for the entire global Jewish community, which is a bit of a fallacy, as many oppose this point of view. Still do continue, as no doubt you are now a supremacist, whilst me, I’m just a bloody mongrel and proud of it.

        1. You left out the rabid, hydrophobic, wormy azz dragging on the carpet, fascist parts of your mongrel heritage..

          1. Edward,

            I cannot be accused of being a fascist & Marxist at the same time on the same Blog by two Zionist fanatics, just does not compute. And, my own heritage and community I came forth from has fought fascism, that’s actual fascism, consistently, starting with the Spanish Civil War. Now fuck off.

            1. > I cannot be accused of being a fascist & Marxist

              Really? The National SOCIALIST SHlTler and Soviet SOCIALIST Non-Aggression pact of 1939 to 1941 proves you WRONG, you duplicitous sack of SHlTler.

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact

              BTW, fuckwit, If you really come from a heritage of fighting fascism, actual fascism, you’d be fighting Islamofascism – the Islamofascism that murders people ALL OVER THE WORLD.

              Islamofascism like 9/11, Londons 7/7, Charlie Hebdo, Bataclan, Nice truck jihad, Manchester, genocidal Islamofascist Iran, Hamass, Hezbola, Al Qada. ISIS, Taliban, Muslim Brotherhood, Al Nusra, Al Shabab, Boston marathon, Orlando, ….

              So “Chris Rogers”, Please, FOAD like a good little fascist.

              Happy Nakba!

            2. “two Zionist fanatics” – yes, those horrible people who believe in Jewish self-determination.
              You will be telling us next that those supporting Black civil rights are ‘nasty fanatics’.
              “my own heritage and community I came forth from has fought fascism” – because opposing self-determination for Jews is SO anti-fascist …
              You pathetic slimeball.

          1. Could you lot make up your minds please, one moment I’m a fascist, the next a Marxist and the next a slime ball. However, since when democratic syndicalism has been fascist I don’t know, and the Syndicalists fought both fascists and Marxist-Lenists in the Spanish Civil War. Still, who am I to argue.

            1. here you are fighting neither. You are trolling Jewish people who are trying to defend themselves against those who attack them. That’s it, that is all it is. Why you do this, what your driving motive is, we cannot decide for you.

  24. David, as the resident knower of fuck all that is going on, who’s this Greenstein bloke that’s fallen foul of the Socialists? I searched the site and found a chap that was trolling your articles last year, suggesting that you imagined most of the antisemitism that you reported. Is this the same fella and if so, how delightfully karmic !

    1. Yes, it is him. Tony is Jewish, the son of a Rabbi, and out with the Marxists. He helped found the Palestine Solidarity campaign. Obsessive, compulsive, prolific and intelligent. He seems to get turned on by baiting Jewish Zionists, and revels in the applause he receives from a few twisted followers. He is an outright propagandist. On occasions where there is a clear error in his writing, he deletes the comment rather than edit out the mistake. I have already collected enough evidence on my side, to indicate he is fully aware the material he posts is riddled with factual errors (rather than just opinion), many of them viscous.

      He has a fixation with pre-Holocaust Zionism and its relationship with the European Geo-political environment of the 1930’s. I believe this may be because it is the most spiteful way to bait Jewish Zionists. Under the cover of the ‘Rabbi’s son’, he has been able to walk a line, whilst his historical distortions have attempted to legitimise those times when he has clearly crossed that line. The problem with people like Tony, is the level of contextualisation and knowledge required to fully understand and counter the propaganda. His arguments are not post 1967 politics, but focusing on the historical roots of the arguments over Zionism. Putting aside his Nazi / Zionist collaboration distortions, he wants to pretend that the Bundist v Zionist argument is still relevant today, this, even after the entire Bundist movement burnt in Auschwitz.

      I view him with distaste, not because of the errors or the politics, not because of the anti-Zionism or the lies, but because I think he is coming from a bad place, and this over-spills into his writing all of the time.

                1. Stephen, thanks for that one. It sounds like your describing a UN meeting about Israel.

                    1. The regressive Left LUVs Fascists when the Fascists are “people of colour”.

      1. “Obsessive, compulsive, prolific and intelligent” – err, no. Low cunning is not intelligence.

  25. He sounds like a peach David. It is fascinating how it has suited activists to chose dates on which to build their arguments and then fixate, to the absolute exclusion of external discourse, on the abstract academic ideas that slot precariously into these narrow constructs. I have never had much time for these positions. As soon as you get past Balfour they are onto ’48. Get beyond that and its ’67 and if that fails its 3000 BC. In other words it’s any date in a storm. In truth the only date that matters is today. The Zionist dream is alive today. Today we are in control of our own borders, our own safety and our own security. Today we make our own decisions in our own home and today my children will encounter no discrimination in our universities, colleges, work places shopping malls and sports clubs because they are Jews. There are Jews in the world that don’t fancy this as people here love to point out. Today, at least they have the choice.

    1. Yes, I agree. Though there is something truly twisted and sinister about obsessing over the Holocaust era in an attempt to bash Jews.

  26. You’re right but consider the motivations of the protagonists. In a no win game like online arguing, everyone has to develop their own idea of what victory looks like. Damaged narcissists like your bloke seem to see victory as the accolades from a perceived audience as you suggested. He took the view that the greatest accolades come from the greatest hurt caused so if you want to attack Jews forget the small pair of tweezers go straight for the bloody chain saw. Huge hurt equals huge applause – real or imagined. Very nasty.

    Then there are those that seek some short term self gratification from a snide little jab from behind the net curtains. People like Mike seem to fit this bill and the fuel of hate means that they have to keep this up because they just can’t bear the thought of seeing a Jew get a free pass. Also very nasty but quite feeble in execution.

    An anomaly like Chris has watched The Beach too many times and has enough chips to fill the Intel factory in Ranaana twice over. His MA (hons) in Near Eastern Masturbation says as much as we need to know about the value of a university education these days.

    Bellers is just Bellers. As he rightly says I haven’t got a fucking clue what’s going on but I do think he like you.

    So on balance I’d say that you were 1-0 up, but who knows how long is left on the clock?

    1. Ian,

      Truth will be out Sir, its that simple. The Left of the political spectrum is quite keen on this, which is why many are happy to acknowledge the UK’s crimes as a colonising power – that is, we don’t ignore or gloss over the facts, which are horrendous. Regrettably, the Zionist apologist on these boards don’t accept the actuality, that is the historical record. Israel is a colonialist state and built on land theft and social cleansing, which I oppose. Allegedly, in the eyes of the Zionists here, this makes me an anti-semite, namely, that I oppose colonialism, oppose nationalism and have concerns for my fellow human beings. All of whom are equal in my eyes. At least you acknowledge that many Jewish folk don’t share your ambitions, don’t support Zionism and don’t place Israel central to their identity. Indeed, in the real world most are overcome just by trying to survive one day at a time. What’s written here by Mr Collier is but a distraction, one that underplays crimes of Israel, which, allegedly is whiter than the driven snow, which is poppycock.

      1. “Israel is a colonialist state” – more crap from the screeching fuckwit and utter slimeball. One can’t be a ‘colonialist’ in one’s own homeland.

  27. Chris, you talk in slogans. People just don’t say this sort of stuff to each other in real life. It’s like all your lines blew up in the air and landed back on the table in the wrong order. There is obviously nothing that we can discuss because I don’t recognise anything you say and in any event people don’t come here to have their minds changed on anything. I think it suffices for us both to be thankful; me for being alive at a time when I am able to live in the Jewish State with my family free from discrimination and prejudice in my daily life; you for being alive at a time when the power of technology allows you to present your opinions to whomever you want and where the largesse of humans give you the freedom so to do.

  28. Chris,

    Please do read the whole post before focusing on little bits as too many do.

    Deary deary me; a well used trope. Meaningless bumful.

    The Conservative Party is a political movement; I said as much, very explicitly.

    The Zionist Movement, a political party or movement.
    This ratses two very important points; 1) who gives dear Chris the right and honour to decide for Jews and Zionists if Zionism is a political entity or not and 2) does Zionisam meet the criteria of a political party or movement.

    Political movements are groups that can be defined as groups that are formed to create a ruling elite following some form of electoral or power grabbing process.
    Zionism is a movement that possesses more than just political drive.
    Zionism represents the ‘NATIONAL LIBERATION MOVEMENT of the JEWISH PEOPLE’ ; and as such represents a serialy disadvantaged and persecuted minority scattered across the globe.
    Zionism represents all Jews that aspire to Jewish emancipation (religous or not).
    Zionism in its early days was led and driven by the group of Jews called ‘ashkenasi’, mainly consisting of western Jews, but this is no longer the case as the ‘mizrachi’ or oriental Jew has actively staked a part in the Zionist Dream and in many cases is now the majority in Zionism.
    Zionism comprises all Jews regardless of their religous/non-religous affiliations, regardless of colour and regardless of which country they happened to be born in.
    Zionism has many strands of political affiliation; not just one. There have been dozens of Zionist political parties that have encompassed political ideologies from across the entire political spectrum, from left to right, ftom red to green, from communist to capitalist etc etc.

    Therefore to call Zionism a political movement as you do, represents your particular viewpoint that must be rejected as totally irrelevant to Jews/Zionisats because of its perceived animus to a people.

    As an example; in South Africa the African National Congress is the Liberation Movement of black South Africans and was always a single unit representing a single idea/concept and led to this single entity dominating the political arena and becoming the government of South Africa. This has been the way across Africa.
    No single party ever dominated Zionism and Israel from its inception to now. All Israeli governments have been Zionist irrespective of their politics.

    Because Jews/Zionists do not live in Israel does not diminish their Zionism as you continuously try to assert.
    Many Zionists/Jews reside outside Israel for a multitude of reasons, just as many Africans reside outside Afrtca but are still regarded as Africans.
    To try insinuate that we who live outside Israel are any less believers in Zionism borders on the racist, as you seem to have given yourself both the right and the power to dictate who we are

    As least you did not claim your ‘best friends are Jewish’ as so many of your fellow travellers are wont to do.

    Israeli crimes against Palestinians: a meaningless statement that is so general and vague and filled with overtones of ???? it is almost mendacious. Needs much more in the way of fact, not opinion, point of view and innuendo

    By the way do Palestinians have human rights but Jews/Israelis not.

    And to complicate and muddy the waters further; prior to 1948 all Palestinians who went by that name were Jews as the Arabs insisted on being called Arabs who lives in the Mandate Of Palestine. Arabs only took the Palestinian moniker in the late 1950s’ anward

  29. Chris

    The American Jewish identity is in flux, and has been for some time.

    Although the vast majority of American Jews still claim a modicum of Jewish identity, for many the connection becomes more tenuous on a yearly basis.
    Intermarriage,assimilation, plummeting birth rates and the belief in the new ‘religion’ of human rights has allienated many Jews from their roots and in a generation or two many will not be Jewish anymore.
    This is an ongoing occurence that is as old as the Isralite/Hebrew/Jewish people has existed; and it will always exist.

    As a result I would not put to much stock in American West Coast and New York Jewish opinion as the only source of knowledge on the issue.
    These are the major sectors of Judaism that I predict will wither away into nothingness.

    The exception to the above is Orthodox American Jewery who are growing exponentialy and at current rates will become the majority of Jewish America

  30. Chris

    As I said in an earlier reply, Zionism is much bigger than just a political movement as it encompasses the whole panalopy of Jewish history, philosophy and religion.

    In your narrow minded animus to Jews/Zionism you ignore the fact that we have been exiled and decimated by hatred and violence across most of the globe for nearly two thousand years, and in all that time have always staked our claim to only one place.

    The place of our dreams in all our books, including the Babylonian Talmud, is ERETZ YSRAEL.

    All the national movements you mentioned have been seeking political freedom within recognised boundaries, with no exile and religous and political persecution similar to the Jewish diaspora.

    The Jewish National Liberation Movement is different in that it includes Jews from atound the world who want to replace their theoretical and imaginary freedom and safety at the hands of multitudous others, and place it firmly within our own grasp; to succeed or fail as our own masters in our own historic homeland

    A very inconvenient truth that no doubt you will argue and dispute for the rest of time; but we have finally escaped foreign domination (from people like yourself) and will continue to fight to maintain our freedom

  31. Chris

    Judaism is more than a religion; we are a people whether we want to be or not.

    The antisemites and Jew Haters of the world ensured that we remained seperate and became apeople even if we were origanally only a religion

    I find it very racist to be told by some individual who I am

  32. Leah

    Not only is it our right to define who we are as Zionists; we also have the right to define who we are as Jews

    Its only the racists and Jew haters who try to define who we are; to ensure that we are the outsiders of the people and nations of this world

  33. Chris

    That is one of the most convoluted and unpleasant posts you have made.

    What has the reference of Zionism in the ancient past got to do with today.
    Zionism is not relevannt to the biblical historic period as it played out in the area of its relevance; much as the national movements in other parts of the world you mentioned earlier, are concerned.

    Zionism is a product of international exile and persecution with no physical homeland to live in; the homeland was the Jewish dream of redemption that has sustained us for nearly two thousand years and became a reality in 1948 despite the machinations and actions of millions of anti-Jewish, antisemetic racists around the world

    Chasidics are a manifestation of the diaspora;
    They are a sect of Judaism.
    They are not the only Judaism
    They are not the exclusive Judaism that the Jew haters so hanker after

  34. Dear Chris

    And why can’t you be a fascist and a marxist at the same time.
    There is a difference in the way they want the economy to run.
    But in operational terms they end up emulating each other.
    They are both controlled economies; it’s just that one says the money belongs to everyone while the other says the money goes where the work is (proverbialy).
    Both are police states where human rights are respected in theory , but not practise.
    Both brook no dissent and incarcerate their opponents in concentration camps/gulags.
    Both control the media and practise extreme censorship; they try to control what we think

    The similarities between the two dwarf their differences; differences which to my mind are only superficial.
    So I can imagine you being both whilst protesting your innocence about your approval of systems (both) that are totalitarian and vile

    1. You really are a tool Richard, still if you desire to equate democratic syndicalism & heterodox economics with authoritarianism, please be my guest – it will be a hard sell I assure you!

      Further, whilst Marx was focused on class issues, he certainly was not the first political economist/philosopher to do so, particularly here in the UK.

  35. ….and the results are in.

    Chris has pissed 2.2 metres up the wall and Richard has also pissed 2.2 metres up the wall.

    So that’s 5000 points to Gryffindor.

    Now about those Jewish students being subject to extreme prejudice at a British Uni……..

    1. Ian,

      I like it Sir.

      As for your other quip, let me relate another Uni tale for you, one I’m confident you’ll appreciate.

      In my first year at Uni in the late 80’s the Hall of residence I was placed in had a considerable Jewish presence, not only were we privy to a large contingent of Jewish students, they weren’t any old Jewish students from London, Manchester, Leeds or Birmingham. No sir, these were Israeli’s. And guess what, all had rather short hair, both male and female, and all seemed physical imposing. There was actually a reason for this, all had just finished off their service with the IDF – they were exchange students. I don’t think they had any prejudice expressed towards them. Evidently our Jewish undergraduates and Post Grads have become less macho – shall I quote your Deputy Foreign Minister for you on this issue, specifically regards diaspora jews living in the USA?

      Mind you, ones tales about the Israeli’s are no where near as exciting as those about the Palestinian’s & Yemeni students, the one Yemeni women i knew could have been Helen of Troy, however, a trail of strife was left behind her. My one friend actually had his nose broken as a result of a liaison with this beauty, and it was an Irish nationalist who did the nose breaking. Had my Irish colleague not undertaken this rather harsh punishment, our Palestinian friend’s warned of harsher terms, a broken nose being far less than what they wanted to dish out. Luckily, my Irish pal who was doing his Phd had pretty good diplomatic skills, and being Irish assisted us greatly.

      Moral of the tale, don’t piss about with the Palestinian’s.

      I wonder what the Israeli students would have made about this?

      It was one time when an IDF presence would have been helpful.

      Mind you, the Israeli female students were quite attractive as well, particularly when wearing quite short hair.

  36. Dead right Bellers. What a bunch of softies! Spare a thought for their hard-pressed opponents eh! Nearly half a million of their Arab chums in Syria, barrel-bombed and gassed into oblivion and barely an apartheid yid in sight to blame. No wonder they’re cross. Take solace in your lovely cat and thank heavens that you’re above such hypocrisy.

  37. Chris, given your last story featured a Jewish coal miner with Israeli military experience who was enjoying relations with an Inca Pan Pipe performer whilst awaiting gender reassignment surgery or some such procedure I can only assume that you watched The Beach again and are starting to live it out too literally.

    1. Ian,

      Regrettably, as with many an Israeli atrocity against the Palestinian’s, all my stuff is not only real, but easily verified, which is the difference between someone actually telling truth, and those who prefer spin, lies and propaganda. Oh, and of 24 students on my course, one was Jewish, he was a Cohen and now lives in the USA – working for CocaCola no less.

  38. Oh, Cohen the Jew from America! I know him. I think I went to his surprise 40th. It was Judean themed. There were panyatas shaped like little Arab kids and we got to smash the shit out of them with liquorice M16s and then eat their insides. Small world ain’t it?

  39. Chris

    In reply to Leah you referenced ‘Jonathan Hoffmans criteria’.
    Please excuse my ignorance; but what is this ‘criteria’?

    Secondly you referenced the fact that certain people are supposedly talking about Zionism and Israel for the world wide Jewish community; you said this was patently wrong.

    My question is; where do you get your expertise and knowledge on word wide Jewish thought that you feel you can comment on what Jews think and feel around the world?

    You mentioned you know about a dozen in your little neck of the woods

    1. Richard,

      Here’s some details on Jonathan Hoffman.

      As for knowing Jewish folk, my former business partner is Jewish, have visited both Synagogues where I know reside, and dined at Kosher establishments – we have a few Hasidic Jews where I’m based, they work with diamonds – nice fish and chips by the way.

      As far as Wales is concerned, our one local Pub was run by a Jewish couple, both dead, they came from Poland as kids. I went out for three years with their grand daughter – they did not practice Judaism and the family is fully integrated into Welsh society – given they had two sons, neither of whom gave any inclination of being Jewish, nor known to practice Judaism, the family is now anglicised with all offspring married to non-Jewish Brits.

      As for other matters, obviously we had Jewish folk in the Green Party, and many like me switched over to Labour after Corbyn’s ascent – given this is Wales & the South West, most of these folk and know via my political stance are not Zionists. Indeed, my one mates dad was born in Jerusalem, she’s slightly older than me and quite secular.

  40. Oh come on Richard. We have already been informed that Chris knew the ex IDF Jewish coal miner, the Jewish girl with the shaved head and Cohen the Jew from America. How can you possibly doubt his credentials?

  41. Ian

    two dates to remember are the
    1 First Jewish Revolt 66-70AD
    2 Second Jewish revolt 132-135AD

    Both of these revolts signal the last time that the native population of ‘Palestine’ ruled the area.

    Since then the territory has been dominated and ruled by outsiders lie the Romans, Arabs, Crusaders, Marmelukes, Egyptians, Ottoman Muslims and British.

    The natives, the Jews in 1948 then took back what was stolen from us ; and recreated ISRAEL (or eretz Ysrael as in the bible)

  42. Chris

    You talk of colonialism as if history only started in the 16th century when the white Europeans went out to conquer the world.

    Colonialism is as much a part of world history as the world itself.

    Try getting an encyclopedia and doing a timeline on the history of the Middle East and North Africa and the various colonial powers that have ruled.
    You can start with the Egyptians or the Greeks or the Babylonians or the Romans or the Arabs or the Ottomans/Turks or the French or the British.

    The last time the area streching from the Mediteraenean and the Jordan River was ruled (had sovereignity) by the native population was
    1 The First Jewish Revolt 66-70AD
    2 The Second Jewish Revolt 132-135AD
    Evidence of this can be found on engravings on Roman monuments and the renaming of thr area by Hadrian.

    Jerusalem was changed to Aelia Capitolina
    Judea & Samaria and most of the area between river and sea was called Syriana Palestina.

    Try reading parts of the Koran, there are many verses that are quite catagoric in saying that the Land was given by Allah to Moses and the Jews, plus a chapter on the Jews (17 Al-Isra

    The Arabs coming from the Arabian Peninsular conquered and, by various means, imposed Islam on the whole MENA region.

    Jerusalem was captured by the invading and conquering Arabian army circa 632AD

  43. Actually Richard,

    Afraid to say you are wrong as usual Lets just say where I live in Wales we have the largest remains of a Roman fort complex in Europe – its 4 miles away. Further, the Norman’s were quite keen on my area as well, which is referred too as the Welsh marches, it is considered that myths about King Arthur and Merlin originated in the Marche lands – obviously, the English too, or should that be the French, have interfered, this rather than the Norman’s, who interfered earlier – the Welsh Flag was first raised as a battle standard for Henry VII – this, is colonialism!

    Indeed, if you’ve kept an eye on Archeological news this week, it transpire ‘pot people’ invaded Britain after Stonehenge was built – circa BC 3500 and we Celts have claims on Switzerland and all of Middle Europe as a result of this fact – the Pot People displaced the first original inhabitants. I’m discussing the issue with some Druid advisors, before advising the Welsh Assembly that all Celts must move to Switzerland and take back what is rightfully ours. God, we’ll all be rich. On the other hand, I may be Sectioned. I believe our Druid elders, whom the Roman’s wiped out on Anglesea, pre-date the birth of Judaism.

    Time to convert to Druidism me thinks, particularly given I’m quite keen on a green burial under a tree in my land of birth.

    Here’s some interesting stuff on Henry VII – this is the period that the colours of the Welsh flag were formulated. And we like our dragons: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/tudors/wales_tudors_01.shtml

    Details of the Pot People can be found on The Guardian website, which is a newspaper Jonathan Hoffman detests, in that fact we share a common agenda, that’s me and Scoffie.

  44. David, in the interests of housekeeping and the removal of unnecessary off topic clutter perhaps a new space can be created here. This can house all of the posts from contributors that wish to offer their thoughts but prefer to focus on subject matter that is somewhat disconnected and remote from the central theme. I am sure readers are keen to keep up with the antics of Bellers’s pesky cat but perhaps less so of transgendered ex IDF Jewish coal miners, chasidic Welsh chippy owners and sundry other fictional eco-warriors all of whom share the common factor of being lapsed Jews. In honour of the likely occupants of this area it could simply be called “The Beach”.

    1. As honest as Islam calling itself “The Religion of Peace” and Laboor calling itself “Progressive” especially in the wake of continuous house cleaning of so many Fascists within its ranks, who after a short while in the desert, return.

  45. Chris

    Actually, the history of Welsh folk and Wales offers a useful comparison with regards to the relationship between Jews and Israel.

    The UN working group on indigenous peoples defined this as “a historical continuity with pre-invasion and pre-colonial societies that developed on their territories, consider themselves distinct from other sectors of the societies now prevailing in those territories (etc)…”. Despite having been conquered by pretty much everyone that fancied it (mostly the English), the Welsh people retained various traits that are necessary to determine an indigenous link to Wales. Using this same test, the Jewish people are indigenous inhabitants of the land of Israel.

    What’s good for the hare is good for the rarebit…

    1. Speaking of rarebit. The most embarrassment moment I have ever caused my wife and daughter was getting busted smoking in the loo on a Ryanair flight allegedly to Venice but which was actually closer to Munich.

      That is until last year in the National trust cafe on Dover cliffs. They are strict vegetarians but I am very much part time. I just can’t help fancying a bacon sarni once in a while. Anyway they had Welsh Rarebit on the menu. I was explaining to the folks in the queue that I was going to have this cuz I just fancied a bit of meat. My daughter said dad, Welsh Rarebit is cheese on toast. Everybody fell about laughing.

      But I never yet had a humiliating moment I didn’t survive

    2. Well Peach,

      Whilst its a fact that Wales is a country in its own right, with an indigenous language and culture – one that centuries of invasion and inward migration has failed to extinguish, despite much of our history itself – thats historical records, being destroyed by early Christians, the fact remains the population stayed in place, so you have at least a continuity of living on the land itself, despite many Welsh folk undertaking their own migrations, mostly for economic reasons. Whilst you can claim to be Welsh by ancestry, no person with a historical link to Wales has an automatic right to actually reside in Wales if they moved outside of the borders of the UK. That is adopted a different homeland and passport – my daughter of a mixed union was born outside of Wales, but has an automatic right to Welsh citizenship if one parent is Welsh, be this male or female. Another consideration, is there is no ethnic-reigious criteria necessary for calling yourself Welsh, namely, if you live in Wales and consider yourself Welsh, then you are Welsh, which is a highly inclusive way of doing things. We also don’t expel person from their lands we deem non-Welsh, nor make claims on vast tracts of England.

      So, I concur, there are actual similarities, but the differences are so large that Wales and the Welsh cannot be compared to the modern Jewish state of Israel. Indeed, Wales should be held up as an example of how a country can exist with huge cultural differences under one banner – effectively, we don’t go in for ethnic cleansing. Although, a number of Welsh folk would like to follow the Israeli example and do behave in a manner similar to Zionists. Plaid Cymru certainly cannot be compared to the Zionist political movement.

      1. You appear to be quite lonely. The people at the Pub find you boring too – and they pat you on the head and walk to the other side of the bar.

  46. The fictional pub is the seasonal ‘must have’ of the troll community. I’ve noticed this trend elsewhere. As their big ticket issues like BDS run out of steam and all the bollox like Israel Apartheid Week flounders hopelessly they have to devise new tactics. At the moment all the nutcases seem to be pivoting to something that they are calling the Fantasist Filibuster. It’s a new deflection involving columns of words about nothing. Any old cobblers will do. Think about it. Why else would a rabid opponent waste so much time writing about life in Brigadoon (1972-81) or CAA in-flight smoking regulations (pre-Brexit).

    This site provides a vital resource to anyone with a serious interest in the way that antisemitism and anti Zionism grew in the UK during the period of David’s work. It also provides an archive of fascinating insights into the manner and style of online opposition activism during the same period and the ways that their tactics were nuanced to reflect the fluidity of the keyboard war and the wider changes in the landscape.

    1. Interesting analysis Ian but not quite flawless. The biggest flaw is that antisemitism didn’t grow during the period of David’s work. If racism in the uk was a food label antisemitism would appear as ” trace” .

      1. Stephen Sir,
        The intent is clear. Indeed, it seems quite OK for Ian to denigrate a Welsh family with Jewish heritage, which I certainly call racism. Again, I’m happy presenting verifiable fact, fact that Ian detests, and no doubt Collier, Hoffman et al as it conflicts with their opinion and ideology, nonetheless, this ideological racism needs confronting, which in my own little way I trust I undertake. So, long live the ideals associated with the French Revolution, namely liberty, friendship and equality, which should be the hallmarks of any civilised state globally.

    2. Ian,

      Persons who are seriously interested in anti-semitism and combating racism of all forms are here in abundance – as you consider anyone posting actual fact as bollocks, that’s not my issue. That you have denigrated a family I know personally, one that was made welcome in Wales and fully assimilated itself in Wales, despite being of Eastern European Jewish descent irks you no doubt, but, the fact remains people integrate and get on with their lives. As far as i’m aware, no one in Wales denies immigrats being proud of their cultural heritage, nor denies them their religion. Indeed, Wales has never had a large Jewish community, that is one that held on to its Jewishness. And, those Jewish folk who undertook to live in Wales have been depleted in number due to economic distress afflicting my country.

      Leo Abse, from a good Jewish family of Solicitors was the local MP in Pontypool for many years, his family still operate a legal practice and are well respected – they have after all contributed to our country and helped those who were poor free of charge with legal issues.

      The family I have mentioned, who’s grand daughter I had a relationship with, ran the Mason Arms, Griffithstown, Pontypool for many years – not once did they suffer from anti-semitism, based on the actual fact, not too many people knew they were Jewish, or actually from Eastern Europe (Poland) – they anglicised their surname to Jackson, and as stated, are fully paid up members of Welsh Society – Israel means nothing to this clan I can assure you!

      Allegedly this is all BS to you as you encourage British folk to emigrate to Israel to bulk your numbers out – only Jewish folk may apply though, as you continue to suggest rampant anti-semitism in the UK.

      In Wales we look after our own, regardless of race, colour or religion. Of course we have racists and racism, which annoys me, hence why I try and combat it – and that means calling persons out for racism and explaining why they are wrong. Oh, and if it comes to fisticuffs, so be it, which is why I was involved in a fracas in Newport when undertaking voter registration as a UKIP racist annoyed me greatly.

      Thankfully for me, Wales is not Israel, nor would I ever desire it to mirror much what has been undertaken in the Holy Lands following the end of WWII – if you are Jewish and wish to live in Wales, great, but please don’t support any form of racism. If you are Israeli and desire to escape Israel, again Wales is a great place, although the weather is damp I’m afraid much of the year.

  47. The Cohens of Pontypool? Perhaps they’re related to the Cohens of America. And didn’t you live in a rainbow eco-collective of passionate socialist rebels and lapsed Jews in the Far East last week?

  48. Ian,

    I know of no Cohen’s in Pontypool, I actually attended University with a Cohen – Pontypool has no University I’m afraid. And, Mr Richard Cohen does live in the USA, not Israel, and works in a senior position for Coca Cola. Do you deny these facts Sir and do you deny the fact I attended University with him, which is qualified by the University we attended, namely the same entry year and same course, which consisted of 24 students only. Facts sir, facts.

    Would you also like to verify the public records, that is those issued with a licence to sell alcohol in the Pontypool/Gwent vicinity, check out Masons Arm’s Griffithstown and a list of tenants associated with said Public House – you will note that the Jackson’s held the tenancy and were issued with all licences in accordance with English and Welsh law. Facts Sir, facts.

    To be perfectly blunt Ian, you are lower than a scoundrel.

  49. Nah! I know you’re screaming “I am kosher” but the tone comes across like one of those Nigerian scamsters who just doesn’t quite use the words in a way that suggests that they’re used to the vocab. To be honest the “some of my best friends…” shtick is horribly overplayed to be remotely plausible and even the anti-Zio arguments feel contrived and a bit hollow. Not for me lad.

  50. Ian,

    If I had the funds to take you to a UK Court for defamation, I would honestly do it. You are a fucking low life mate, a person who denigrates Jewish folk for integrating 100% into the society they belong to. And allegedly, you Zionists fight anti-semitism. Please pull the other one as it has bells on.

    Unlike Collier, with his ‘opinions’, I’ll stick to facts, as UK law Courts must stick to facts.

  51. Seriously? I mention Nigerian scamsters and you start asking for money. It’s all starting to come together in a rather obvious way. Where are you claiming to be today The Valleys, Lagos, The Beach?

    1. Stephen,

      Where I now reside, I actually have three beaches within easy walking distance, which can easily be verified by Google Maps and a plethora of other data. However, in Kays warped mind, these beaches no doubt don’t exist, the same as Jewish folk who don’t give a toss about Israel don’t exist, or Jewish folk being horrified at Israel and the murder of Palestinians don’t exist. Of course, it was once the aim of many Jewish elders that Jewish folk integrate and assimilate into the communities they found themselves living within, which on many occasions was thwarted by religious bigots and racists of these host nations, that, despite these odds, many have indeed assimilated, and have happy and meaningful lives free of racism, free of religious dogma and free to express themselves without harm does not chime well with those who embrace Zionism and wish to sow fear – this site being a classic example.

  52. Bellers, The Beach was Danny Boyle film about a fictional bunch of idealistic nomads cohabiting on a remote Far East Island where they invented their own truthes whilst high as kites on the local flora. Any similarity between this and probable composite characters here may be purely coincidental.

    1. Ian,

      The only problem with your bollocks is that your geography stinks. So, now we are to believe that the Islands and landmass forming Hong Kong has no beaches, that Hong Kong is to be found in Thailand and that Hong Kong actually has no Jewish persons living within its geographical constraints – which will come as a shock to many.

      Further, Ian is of the opinion that Pontypool (Torfaen) in South East Wales is the Velley’s, despite the fact its actual geographical position is actually outside of the Valley’s.

      Alas, we must take Mr Kay’s bollocks as gospel, despite his lack of geographical understanding, or ability to comprehend realities as they existed, or exits. No doubt the University of Leicester does not exist, nor does any other HE Institution in Leicester.

      Still,I’m but a Nigerian living on The Beach in Thailand – The Beach as a Novel also being a load of bollocks in my humble opinion. I’ll stick to the likes of Bradbury if you don’t mind, or Wyndham.

      1. Your utter ignorance of the history of the Jews and the history and geography of the ME is several orders of magnitude greater, slimeball.

  53. Dear Chris

    Deary deary me; such big words to describe social engineering by economic means.

    Also the derogatory insults like calling me a ‘tool’ tend to diminish your arguments as they give the impression that by diminishing your opponents status, you so to diminish their argument. Petty insult is the reserve of the petty that tries to buttress their argument by personal invective rather than a convincing response.

    Also if I am not mistaken , this is a discusion on the pernicious affects of Antisemitism on the Jewish population in the UK.

    But following on from your post-

    The state control of bussiness to share the wonders of wealth , and wealth creation, have proven in every case to be an utter failure , an illusionary utopia

    ‘The Tragedy of the Common’ by Hardin perfectly encapsulates why common/public ownership of the means of production, or anything else, is doomed to its own destruction.

    Fascist/Socialists/Marxists and all the other authoritarian control economies always fail because to control an economy it is necessary to have political control so as to control all aspects of ownership, production and distrubution.

    And as the old adage goes ‘power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely’.

    Discussing support for discredited and failed economic systems with supporters of such systems is like entering the fabled ‘eden’, where all of ones wants/needs are attended too, and reality is a commodity that is to be avoided at all times ( closest thing that comes to mind is promising ‘shahids’ 72 virgins in the afterlife).

    1. Just one issue Richard, as far as practical systems of empowerment go, democratic syndicalism offers much, whilst being very much of the Left. Oh, and most persons on the Left discuss democratic socialism, not a centralised system the faux socialists prefer, namely our neoliberal chums such as Blair.

      One other big issue, I’m in favour of an ‘inclusive’ commons, as such, anything that smacks of ‘exclusive’ is anathema to me, which, is why I’m pleased I’ve lived in two distinct cultures that actually are ‘inclusive’, whereby most have scant regard for religion, race or other divisive labels to divide the commons. So afraid to say, if we are looking at ideal States, Israel certainly ain’t on it.

      1. Chris

        This is a blog on the pernacious effects of Antisemitism on the victims

        But

        I don’t think you understand what Hardin was getting at in his discussion on the ‘Commons’
        He believes that because no one owns the common, in the end it is destroyed because all understand that some can profit from abusing said Common, thus all will abuse the Common to prevent getting left behind

        The wonderful world of utopian economics that needs stringent regulation and an upper class to dispence the imagined potential profits

        Dream on – dreaming is for free and makes some happy

  54. As I mentioned above Richard, in the future David’s site will offer a fascinating archive of insights into the tactics employed by supporters and opponents in the field of online activism. This is no more evident than in the exchange today with “Chris”. We see in the posts of this contributor the use of a number of devices to subvert and deflect a thread and the challenges that posters of this type face in maintaining an over-elaborate and often obviously implausible legend or cover story particularly in multiple threads. I imagine that readers will evaluate the various tactics deployed alongside the relative positions of the activists and draw their own conclusions as to who was on the right side of the argument and who was not.

  55. And don’t forget the more than 500 Syrian civilians murdered this week by Syrian governrment and Russian bombs dropped indiscriminately on civilians

    And narry a protestor in site

    No Jews involved so no need to protest

    If The Jews were dropping the bombs the protestors would be out in their thousands

    I wonder why; maybe Chris or Mike or Stephen could enlighten us

  56. Chris

    We will stop pissing the Palestinians about when they stop pissing us off by trying to kill us with their peaceful stone throwing antics and stabbings, shootings, bombings and car rammings etc

  57. Chris

    This is a blog on the pernacious effect Antisemitism has on its Jewish victims

    But….

    you mentioned many Israeli attrocities etc.

    Easy to make broad statements especially about a country that has been defending itself for 70 years against genocidal threats

    So please give some examples that also include the build up to those examples you do show
    ie; gratuitous killing of Jews, build up of Arab armies with threats to destroy Israel etc.

    Go on Chris, you can do it (just try to stick to the truth)

  58. Chris

    This being a blog about the pernacious effects of Antisemitism on Jews

    But………

    That piece you posted on prof Hoffman

    First thing I saw was his statement that force never resolves problems

    Yet the absolute force displayed during WW 2 and the results show that the intelligent use of force taken to a defite conclusion [absolute defeat] results in clear cut benefit; here where peace between the protaganists has been near total

    And Marxism has collapsed due to its inherent contradictions; one being that humans are all the same and therefore can all work towards the same goal of economic utopia

  59. Chris

    This blog is about the pernicious effect that Antisemitism has on Jews

    But…..

    Your playful riposte on the romans and welsh and martians and little green men was so totally over my head that I am now drowning in the detrius that was swilling around beside it.

    Sorry for lower caps but my computer is still suffering from all the after effects

    gigle giggle gigggle

  60. Chtis

    This blog is abouy the pernicous effects of Antidemitism on Jews

    Bur…..

    It was you that unleashrd the idea of diamonds and Jews and chippies and pubs

  61. Dear Chris

    This blog deals with the pernicous effects of Antisemitism on Jews

    But……

    If the Welsh had been exiled and expelled and murdered as has happened to the Jews over 2500 plus years, I doubt that there would be Welsh today

    So when you compare, do try to keep the parameters of the comparison of the same type; whether it be fruit, people, victims of mass murder, victims of exiles etc.

    The Welsh suffered terribly under English and other occupiers; but the extent and variety are of a different type, duration and severity to the Jews.

  62. Stephen

    Antisemitism today leads the pack

    It may have been trace a while back, but in the fastest growing community in the UK it is the leader.

  63. Chris

    When you refer ro a ‘family with Jewish heritage’, one can assume that they no longer practise Judaism; they sound as though they have totally assimilated and now have no connection to Judaism

    This ratses a number of interesting questions being
    A) if Judaism is only a religion, when someone ceases all Jewish religous practise, rhey would then cease to be Jews
    B) if Judaism is not a people, then how could non-religous Jews claim to be Jewish (and this group asccording to all statistical evidence may be the largest group
    C) Tony Greenstein proffessed to me that he is a Jewish atheist; he also said he does not believe in a Jewish peoplehood/nationhood
    D) the biggest charge against Judaism is that it is a religion and not a people

    Maybe you as a non-Jew with a seemingly large understanding of all aspects concerning Judaism, you may have an answer to this seeming conundrum.

    I eagerly await the answer from our non-Jewish Jewish expert

  64. Chris

    If Ians commentary is that of a scoundrel, then I fear it may be something he picked up from many of your irreverent posts decrying Davids work

  65. Chris

    For a person who has no compunction in the use of denigrating language and insult, you prove to be incredibly thin skinned and offended when you don’t like what is returned to you.

    It is you that has brought to this blog the unpleasant whiff of the double standard and denigration that Jews have to endure in their daily lives

    Your commentary verges on the unplaesant when you try to belittle others.

    If you are unhappy go someplace else; your presence will not be missed

  66. Chris

    Are you now actively taking on the mantle of the non-Jewish Jew expert.

    The Jewish elders telling the Jews to assimilate

    Which Jewish Elders are you talking about; from your previous commentary I fear these are rhe same Elders of that book

    And what type of assimilation; I fear you mean the loss of Jewish identity.

    Please explain; otherwise we will be left to conclude that our fears about you are being ultimately proven correct

  67. Chris

    This is a blog on Antisemitism

    You continuously try to ridicule and mock other posters and try to take the discussion to other places.

    If you do not like the commentary you are free to l;eave; as we still live in a free counrty
    .

  68. Chris

    This is a blog about Antisemitism

    If you want to waffle on about your silly utopian politics do it somewhere else

    But……

    The whole point about the common is that if it is commonly accessable for use by all with no control, it soon ceases to be a common for all because of misuse and abuse by people that don’t care because it does not belong to them, and it’s someone elses responsibility to maintain, and for them to use/abuse. [necesarilly convoluted because common ownershpp is an oxymoron that defies logical explanation]

  69. Richard,

    Indeed, like many others, I’m opposed to all forms of racism, be it anti-semitism or Islamophobia – racism is a scourge and should be confronted, as should persons crying wolf about racism (anti-semitism), when plainly, its not racist to point out when nation states engage in racist behaviour, such as ethnic cleansing of lands. Should we consult with a few Palestinians about this issue, or Yemeni citizens or Saudi citizens – usually I consult with those of African descent, who know racism from a mile off – many of whom seem most unwelcome in Israel presently!

  70. Chris

    Please read the entire post as it is all interconnected

    So many issues to deal with; so let me assess two

    Critisising Israel is NOT ANTISEMETIC – Holding Israel to standards that are not expected of any other nation is Antisemetic (and context counts such as that which exists when events are unfolding). This is an entire field on its own and deserves years of study, not a few lines in a blog

    Erhnic Cleansing is my favourite; during a civil war between the Arabs and the Palestinians (all the Jews were Palestinian then) prior to May 1948 and a war after between the new Israel and the Arabs, approximately 700000 Arabs fled or were forced our.
    Now in war, all war throughout history, refugees are the most tragic outcome, and this includes the Palestinian refugees and the Jewish refugees

    Now lets talk Hebron 1929; no war in any form yet about 70 Jews massacred and the rest of a thousands year old community were ETHICALLY CLEANSED BECAUSE THEY WERE JEWS.
    This happened in Safed and other places as well .
    You see the Arabs/Palestinians do like to kill Jews; they think we are still helpless dhimmis

    In 1948 every Jew living in Judea and Samatia and Jerusalem was either killed or ETHNICALLY CLEANSED by the Jordanian army; in effect the area now known as rhe West Bank for the first time in thousands of years became Judenfrei (Jew free in German. I often think how proud Hitler would have been of the doings of some of his accolytes in the Arab world and the non-Jews in the wesrtern world who support/ed this).
    Remember that the British split the Mandate of Palestine in two and created the state of Transjordan and the Jordanian Legion, an army officered and financed by the British. It was this army that in 1948 invaded, then occupied then annexed this area.
    And they never made the West Bank into Palestine while they controlled it

    The best is yet to come though…..

    Prior to 1948 nearly a million Jews lived in the Middle East and North Africa (MENA).
    Today there are only a few thousand Jews living in the MENA
    WHY?
    There were no wars in the MENA that involved Jews; unless…..you include the Arah/Israeli war.
    So what happened to the Jews of the MENA?
    As you so often like to say, ‘not all Jews are Zionists and not all Jews/Zionists want to live in Israel’.
    So why did all the Jews leave in a single generation?
    And why did most end up in Israel?
    And why were most destitute when they arrived (remember in popular culture Jews are all wealthy and control the world)?
    Again I ask…..Why did virtually all the Jews leave the MENA in so short a time?

    The only answer, the only reason the Jews left was because they were forced/coerced to leave because they were Jews. The Jews were ethnically cleansed from the MENA because they were Jews, ; and for no other reason.
    And they were forced to leave everything they owned
    There were no wars that involved the Jews; many were not Zionist; many wanted to remain in their communities where their families had lived for milenia.

    This was real ETHNIC CLEANSING; driven by Jew hate; driven by raw, naked Antisemitism.

    The Arabs left what was now Israel for a variety of reasons; but they left during a time of war/civil war.
    And a sizeable minority remained and still do remain; approximately 23% of Israels population then. and now. are Muslims.

    So yes lets talk ethnic cleansing in Israel because it is an enormous sublect that has been distorted and twisted by Arab/Palestinian propoganda and acquired a life all of its own.

    No other refugee crisis has ever evolved into its own singular world as has the Palestinian refigee crisis. and the only plausable conclusion I can come to is that IT WAS DRIVEN BY jEW HATE AND ANTISEMITISM

  71. Chris

    Antisemitism is the hatred of a people

    Islamaphobia is the hatred of a religion; this is not racism as Islam is a religion and not a peope

    I’m sure you will find some way to say Islamaphobia is racist so go ahead and see if you can manufacture an argumenrt out of floom or whatever

    Incidently; I AM NOT EXCUSING OR JUSTIFYING iSLAMAPHOBIA; I just view it in a different light

  72. Very sincere and earnest submissions Richard. However lets remind ourselves that posters like Chris are absolutely not here to ever, ever say “Know what, you have a point..” even if you do….and even if they think you do!

    Their sole purpose is to combat the very real risk of people reading David’s articles and feeling more sympathetic to Jews and to Israel. That is the absolute line in the sand. When you strip away all the ” Some of my best friends…” bollox, all that you are left with is antisemites; people that say “I hate prejudice but actually, those Jews…”.

    I have said many times that it remains a huge tribute to David and the value of his endeavours that these cretins feel compelled to ply their trade here although it would be nice to get a more robust challenge once in a while.

    1. This was a resolution passed by Hampstead and Kilburn Constituency Labour Party last week. Wondering if Ian and David, had they been members of that CLP, would have voted for it.

      This Branch/CLP notes that Del Singh (Dhamender Singh Phangurha) was an active campaigner for the Labour Party since he was a teenager. He was killed in Afghanistan while working as an aid worker. At the time of his death in 2014, he was an MEP candidate for the Labour Party. A founding member of Labour Friends of Palestine, Del dedicated his life to fighting for human rights across the world and sought justice for those whose voice could not be heard.

      In his memory, the Labour Party set up the Del Singh Memorial Award. In 2017 it was given to Louise Ellman MP and the JLM. Del’s sister, Dish Kaur-Umfleet, speaking on behalf of the family said it was given to “those that have tirelessly defended the human rights abuses of the Israeli occupation, which Del spoke so passionately against. Those that have defended the illegal blockade of Gaza and the consecutive wars against the trapped population which Del categorically believed to be nothing short of collective punishment and war crimes.”

      Therefore this Branch/CLP supports the call of Del Singh’s family for “the 2017 award to be revoked, a full response and an apology from the General Secretary and the Leader of the Labour Party as to why and how this happened.”

      We further support the family’s request that in future there should be consultation with them to ensure that the prize is never again awarded to anyone who contradicts what Del Singh worked for all his life.

    2. Ian

      As I said to Mike;
      I do not post here only to reply to the you, I am replying so that anyone reading my post and the Mikes’ will have an explanation other than that of the insurgent post.

      I am not speaking to the troll, but to the wider audience

      Also I mat give others pointd that they may use in future discussion

    3. Ian,

      Many thanks for you points. First and foremost, this Poster does not subscribe to the anti-semitism hysteria promoted on sites like this, a hysteria not qualified by the facts, regardless of how the Hasbara wish to manipulate said facts in its favour.

      Secondly, and with regards Richard’s posts, they are little more than ‘pro-forma’ responses. Responses prepared by the Hasbara to deflect attention away from Israel’s transgressions on human rights, which are multiple and well documented by UN affiliates.

      The sad fact is for Zionists, Israeli apologists and Imperialist warmongers is that their claims and narratives are being challenged and that normal folk are waking up to certain facts via the penetration of social media and alternative sources of news.

      That the likes of John (Scoffie) Hoffman has the temerity to suggest the The Guardian of all news organs is anti-semitic sums up the level of BS that afflicts many.

      Still, I’ll trust my own eyes and observations, observations that don’t sit comfortably with propagandists as they undermine the credibility of outlandish claims made.

      Of course, only having lived in small communities, my experiences are limited and some what parochial. That acknowledged, I’ve yet to personally witness any type of anti-semitism directed at Jewish folk I personally know – folk that Posters here deny exist, for there very existence undermines much trash peddled on this forum.

      1. Thanks for the update.

        Now tell us what you had for breakfast and what do you plan for lunch and dinner.

        Happy Nakba!

  73. Sorry Chris, you were rumbled the moment all of the inconsistencies started appearing in your various stories. The inclusion of the ex IDF Jewish coal miner (obviously fully assimilated) and his gender neutral Thai mail order bride was a lovely touch but didn’t help the plausibility either.

  74. Dear dear Chris

    So I am a Hasbara junkie am I; interesting

    I posted a long list of facts about Ethnic Cleansing; and how do you, the little darling reply.
    No attempt at refuting the argument and points I made.
    No
    You attack and denigrate the messenger.
    If you are unable to counter an argument, the refuge for charlatans and rogues like yourself, is to attack your opponents by attempting besmirch them with mindless and inept accusations to deflect attention from your inability to reply and/or your lack of facts.

    Whether or not I am a Hasbarist is of no consequence.
    I put forward an argument, and you were unable to counter it with anything other than a mindless attempt to say it was worthless because of……(I am not sure what because you neither engaged with me nor substantiated your whacky claim about me).

    You implied that you were a University graduate, but your attempt at debate is that of a school child at the early stages of their education; ie. no facts, an inability to engage and exchange ideas and the resort to ignoring your interlocutor.

    Your behaviour lends credence to the charge that you are not here to debate but to denigrate.
    To be a troll
    You claim to not be a racist, yet your methods smack of racism because you make provocotive and nasty statements about a group of people (and country) which you fail to substantiate.

    If you do not like Jews that is your privelege; I feel though that you feel unable to voice your dislike openly so you have found your means by being anti-Israel and anti-Zionist

    Do answer my earlier post if you are able; but if you do , please stick to dry facts and leave the emotive hyperbole for another day

  75. No doubt Collier, Hoffman et al, as ever will be crying into their cornflakes as further research suggests accusations of anti-semitism within the British left are but figments of Zionists imaginations, here’s two links and obviously Collier & Hoffman will be checking all this research out themselves, which paints a different picture than that highlighted here: https://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2018-03-01/labour-mp-anti-semitism-claims/ And here: http://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/antisemitism/searching-truth-line-abuse-allegations/

    1. Chrissy, Tell us about Big Bad IslamoFAUXbia and how the world is awash by it.

  76. Chris

    I see you are still able to srnd your nasty insulting contributions to this blog, but are unable to reply to my post about Ethnic Cleansing with anything other than petty insult.

    Considering that you claim to be a university graduate, your level of intelligent discourse is minimal, which casts doubt ae to your educational claims and your ability to interact intelligently.

    The conclusion that seems to be appearing is that you have a visceral dislike of Jews that you try to conceal by calling it anti-Zionism and anti-Israelism.

    Some of your earlier posts gave the impression of a lurking intelligence behind the nasty facade that you displayed, but like all good haters it appears that the appearance of the nasty persona is the reality.

    Ho Hum Giggle Giggle

    1. Richard,

      i’d rather listen to rational folk who shout out things for what they really are. Indeed I salute them.

      In this spirit, one that opposes the racism implicit within Zionism and its political project, namely the construct of Israel, here’s Gideon Levy talking on the evening of 3 March: https://youtu.be/JQS-_9K5-Dk

      So Richard, your playbook has zero influence on me, your apologia for Israel is but a ham fisted cover up of abuse, abuse of those in the Occupied Territories and abuse of history.

      As the noted US Journalist reminds us, one Chris Hedges, it is necessary to resist, and I certainly resist Zionist lies and propaganda.

      Indeed, I salute all those Jews & Arabs within Israel who aspire to something better.

      Now, go take your insults of Leftism, anti-semitism and ‘Jew Baiting’ elsewhere.

      1. Chris

        Gideon Levy is designed especially for you and your ilk.

        Mostly we take Levy with a pinch of salt and some lemon for flavour.

        I have aways presume him to be one of those small band of Jews who detest their heritage and are embaressed to be Jews.

        History is filled with Jews who hate their heritage for a multitude of reasons and leave both the religion and peoplehood of Judaism.

        And if that’s what they want; so.

        Most Jews who choose this route , do it by walking away.

        Some, like Levy and Atzmon and Peled and Pappe etc try to destroy what they disagree with and/or dislike.

        And if that’s what they want;so

        Many make a lucrative carreer out of being anti-Israel; there appears to be a great future for these people, although the ground seems to be getting a bit crowded as I have seen quite a number of these worthy individuals returning to the warm bosom of Judaism when things didn’t work out as planned

        Ho Hum , Ho Hum , giggle giggle giggle (you are so true to form; so what can one say).

        And do try to offer a decent rebuttal to my piece on Ethnic Cleansing if you are able to.

  77. Chris

    With all your obfuscating and insult you have not addressed one single thing that I said.

    Your attempt to denigrate me seems to be your sole attempt at refutation of my argument.

    The way you debate is to insult

    You confirm what I have said before; you have no argument and your viewpoint is coloured by a dislike of Jews that you try to conceal by calling it anti-Israel anti-Zionism.

    The history of the Jews is littered with haters like yourself; people who cannot debate and resort to insult or worse to denigrate Jews

Leave a Reply